There still seems to be alot of ambiguity over how best to use this stuff;

Christian Thibaudeau on WMS....

I'm not saying that vitargo isn't good. In fact, when taken by itself, vitargo (waxy maize) is probably the best carb to quickly refill muscle glycogen. BUT (and that is a big but) the reason for that superiority is lost as soon as it's taken with something else. You see, vitargo/waxy maize is good because of its molecual weight, which makes it absorbable 80% faster than regular carbs powder. However when you mix it with other ingredients like amino acids, protein, creatine, etc. the combined molecular weight of the product becomes ''normal'' and the mixture is thus not absorbed any faster than other carbs/amino acids/protein formulas. So in that regard it isn't worse and it isn't better... it's just more expensive.

But the info elsewhere goes against this train of thought...

Wiki....

It does have a moderate Glycemic Index, however, it is it's unique osmolity that allows it to pass through the digestive system relatively quickly and help pull other nutrients with it into the bloodstream. It's purported effect is assumed to be a greater insulin release and having a higher amount of desired materials reach the blood stream in a smaller time frame

The problem seems to be that even adding things like aminos, is that they have a lower molecular weight than the high molecular weight WMS, which means you're affecting the overall molecular weight of what you ingest.

(The higher the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the lower it’s osmolality....the lower the osmolality the more hypotonic a solution is....the more hypotonic the solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine).

In terms of insulin index...i've only found anecdotal evidence that shows WMS has the same DE (dextrose equivalency) as glucose, so in effect the more you add to WMS the more you're reducing it into just an expensive glucose powder (albeit one that's easier on the stomach). The halfway house opinion seems to be to use WMS with small amounts of aminos so you can quickly draw the carbohydrate up into your muscles, along with water, and the nutrients you take along with it. But trying to find a ratio of WMS to free form aminos seems inconclusive as opinions vary wildly.

Anyone got any nuggets on this one?!

Personally I just go with having the WMS and then waiting a short while before having anything else.

I don't have any studies but I think if you keep the ratio above maybe 4:1 or even 5:1 for WMS to AA you should be fine.

Wardie wrote:I don't have any studies but I think if you keep the ratio above maybe 4:1 or even 5:1 for WMS to AA you should be fine.

Based on what?

JohnC wrote:

Wardie wrote:I don't have any studies but I think if you keep the ratio above maybe 4:1 or even 5:1 for WMS to AA you should be fine.

Based on what?

Yep, exactly the conundrum...it's all anecdotal this theory that WMS 'drags' other aminos/supps into your bloodstream quicker. I've not found ANYTHING concrete to suggest this is the case...if anything the science goes against this.

JohnC wrote:

Wardie wrote:I don't have any studies but I think if you keep the ratio above maybe 4:1 or even 5:1 for WMS to AA you should be fine.

Based on what?

Like I said, it's not really based on anything other than that a 5:1 ratio should mean the rate of absorbption isn't really effected, and AAs are absorbed pretty fast regardless.

Personally I just take my WMS and then whatever else 20 minutes later

Wardie wrote:

JohnC wrote:

Wardie wrote:I don't have any studies but I think if you keep the ratio above maybe 4:1 or even 5:1 for WMS to AA you should be fine.

Based on what?

Like I said, it's not really based on anything other than that a 5:1 ratio should mean the rate of absorbption isn't really effected, and AAs are absorbed pretty fast regardless.

Personally I just take my WMS and then whatever else 20 minutes later

I think that's probably the best solution - separating the wms from everything else by about 20 mins. Well, to obtain the maximum benefit from the wms at least.

why not aminos first then WMS later?

I would of thought that the II of WMS is very low as KP tested his blood sugar and it only rose to 15nm 1hour after ingestion being 4-6 15 mins after iirc (kp should shed some light on this).

I there fore theorize than due to its high molecular weight the body does not need to produce as much insulin to shuttle it into cells.

I also do not get lethargy from this carbohydrate which is indicative again of low insulin release.

BTW - WMS is basically cornstarch, yup regular cornstarch! The differences are the amylose and amylopectin ratios

WMS = 99% amylopectin
Cornstarch = 74% amylopectin 26% amylose

I've tried both and do not get a any different results from either, go to tescos 500g for 50p...

health4ni wrote:why not aminos first then WMS later?

If your glycogen stores are depleted your body will utilise whatever it can to refil them before it begins using protein for reparing muscles (at least that's how I understand it, it's no doubt a little more complicated than this).

Health I do this myself aminos first then some carbos but hey we might have a solution to take advantage of WMS combined to some nitro more to come. Isn't it ?!?? orinoco

that's why taking some aminos before and/or during the WO can be a sound option, coz even if you can't rush on your magic post WO potion you still have some bricks and cement left to start rebuilding the myofibril

Max wrote:
WMS = 99% amylopectin
Cornstarch = 74% amylopectin 26% amylose

I've tried both and do not get a any different results from either, go to tescos 500g for 50p...

Cornstarch is approx 75% amylose

WMS is modified corn starch....is isnt just regular.

The issue here is that ALOT of suppliers get given regular! Which is why you see a difference in texture, taste and mixability.....

When I did my little self freak tests few years back...I came to the conclusion that 20g protein is the max that should be mixed with 40g WMS....OR take them separate.....at least 20 mins apart.....but if you are talking pre and intra aminos \ isolate \ hydr then your good to go on the amino pooling...and then its just shuttling via WMS

KP

kp1512 wrote:WMS is modified corn starch....is isnt just regular.

What advantages does it give over corn starch?

Wardie wrote:Like I said, it's not really based on anything other than that a 5:1 ratio should mean the rate of absorbption isn't really effected, and AAs are absorbed pretty fast regardless.

I'm not trying to wind you up here, so don't take it that way, but where did you get the 5:1 figure from? It isn't exactly something you can just pull out of thin air and then use trial and experiment on like the ratio of flour to egg in a cake recipe.

JohnC wrote:

Wardie wrote:Like I said, it's not really based on anything other than that a 5:1 ratio should mean the rate of absorbption isn't really effected, and AAs are absorbed pretty fast regardless.

I'm not trying to wind you up here, so don't take it that way, but where did you get the 5:1 figure from? It isn't exactly something you can just pull out of thin air and then use trial and experiment on like the ratio of flour to egg in a cake recipe.

lol welcome to the internet

I did say earlier than it was just made on an assumption that a ratio along them lines wouldn't change the molecular weight too much and could give the benefits that Orinoco was talking about.

I then said that personally i'd just use WMS seperately....

It does seem to be conjecture that WMS shuttles any nutrients at all. How could you tell? Have any studies been done? The science would suggest that by altering the molecular weight of the solution as a whole,then you're changing the dynamics of how WMS gets absorbed.

Anyone have ANY info to show that WMS speeds up the absorption of other nutrients? Anyone have an II figure for WMS? It's either the biggest myth perpetuated or a case of 'absence of evidence isn't evidence of abscence'...

I've a totally open mind on this.......

I just don't see the point really... even if it does, you'll probably have to use such a big ratio that it's really not even worth the hassle for such a small gain.

I'm only using a small amount PWO now, around 5g-10g with my whey and leucine and this seems to be fine.

I am getting on very well with this mix through workout though:

200ml Apple Juice
500ml Water
10g EAA
20g BCAA

That's the highest BCAA/EAA usage i can recall you using alex. Is it?

(eaa/bcaa just seem to work better the more you use...lovely stuff!!! )

It's the only BCAA/EAA combo I've ever used. It seems to work well for me.

I tend to chuck in scoops to be honest as opposed to measure but the labelling weights on the bags are really useful so now I don't have to guestimate so much

That dose of bcaa's should really help with fatigue.