Wide Grip Chins

Anything related to bodybuilding? Then put it here!

Wide Grip Chins

Postby kp1512 on Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:46 pm

I found this interesting only because in my prev gym I used to see a guy that would do wide grip chins and then medium grip and then rows - that ALL he did. He had amongst the best backs we all had seen....just reminded me of him when I read it.

High-Frequency Training For Stubborn Muscles PDF Print E-mail
Written by Carlon M. Colker, MD, FACN
Friday, 21 August 2009
A trap we so often fall into is to train weak body parts more frequently in the hopes that “more is better.” The fact is that it’s a trap that does nothing but eventually shrink muscle, increase local inflammation and raise the likelihood of injuring the area. As an example, a typical scenario would be a 25-year-old bodybuilder who has weak triceps. Instead of sticking with the 10-set intense weekly workouts he started off doing, eventually he figures that 12 sets would be better. Twelve leads to 15 and eventually he’s doing 20 sets. So right there, he’s already overtrained. After awhile, as he no longer feels any soreness in his muscles no matter how many sets he’s doing, he increases the frequency of workouts to the point that he’s hitting his triceps twice each week for 15-20 sets each session. Eventually, he develops elbow pain and tendinitis. Meanwhile, his triceps still look like shit.


His elbow pain and tendinitis is a typical result of excessive inflammation. The same holds true in every joint. Back, hips, shoulders, knees and ankles are all susceptible to high-volume inflammation from repetitive resistive work. Remember that high-volume resistance training is not like a long jog. You must keep in mind that the goal is maximum pump. That means high circulation, heat and lactic acid production in the area. The area should be pumped and then allowed to clear via circulation. If instead you keep going back to the proverbial well, lactic acid remains in the area for too long a period. Lactic acid then slows healing and potentiates the inflammatory state. So while a little abbreviated muscle fatigue as a result of a fleeting pump is good for muscle growth, a constant and excessive battering of movement to try to further break down muscle in an area that already has been pumped to capacity is a formula for disaster.
This guy with his cruddy triceps and elbow pain is a classic example of how to do it the wrong way. Need another example? If you’re dumb enough, you are welcome to try doing 300 reps of squats three times a week for a few months and see if you don’t develop debilitating joint pain! So where exactly did he go wrong? How could he have gone after more muscle growth while not falling into the trap I describe? The answer is easy to understand, but extremely difficult to apply. That’s because the compunction to do more as opposed to less is almost irresistible. But the idea of higher frequency workouts was in fact the right idea_t7a3373.jpg. The mistake he made was that in turn, he should have dialed down the total number of sets he was doing. So if he was maxed out in terms of sets with his original number of 10 sets, he should have actually dialed that number down to about 8 sets when he introduced the other training session that same week.


Since women have a much more difficult time than men when building extreme muscle, this is perhaps the best place to look for a descriptive example of how well this principle works in proper action. The first example that comes to my mind is pro fitness competitor sensation and 2008 Fitness International Champion Kim Scheideler. Though one of the best of all time, Kim is hardly ever the biggest girl on the stage. She doesn’t put on a ton of muscle easily with her body type. Early on in her career, her shoulders were almost a weakness for her, visually. They were a little bony and flat from the sides. But at the 2008 Arnold Sports Festival, she showed obvious massive deltoid improvement that even drew attention from the crowd at the week-ending seminar. Kim showed full, rounded, symmetric deltoids, with perfect proportion and clearly visible rock-hard striations. This was a dramatic departure from past appearances and a major improvement. The “how-to” story is that Kim simply and correctly utilized the concept of proper high-frequency training. While she hit her shoulders with training twice each week, neither session was a full-blown routine. She had the discipline to keep the total number of sets in check and not go overboard.


Again, it takes a tremendous degree of self-control to resist the temptation to do a full-blast routine. People like Kim (and myself) and almost every other committed musclehead out there simply love to train. It’s not our fault. We’re just wired that way. It’s to the point that it’s almost sacrilege to even suggest that we do a little less. But the good news is that it only hurts to get started. After that, you get used to it, because the next session comes up on you pretty quick, so you learn to enjoy the little bit of rest interval prior to the next session.
Keep in mind that I said nothing about dialing down intensity. In fact, your intensity should be very, very high. This is especially true because the routine for that body part will be so much more abbreviated. If intensity is too low, you will turn a muscle-stimulating routine into, at best, maintenance.


Looking back and drawing from my personal experience, I recall stumbling on the benefits of high-frequency training quite serendipitously. As a young teenage bodybuilder back in the ‘80s, I had always wanted a big set of lats. I recall cutting out pictures of Franco Columbu’s lat spread and putting them up on my wall for inspiration, next to my poster of Farrah Fawcett. He had crazy-looking lats that started from his waist and blew out from his sides like a pair of bat wings. I wanted to be wide, wide, wide. So I trained back with a ferocity unmatched by others in the gym. It was my main focus for months. Chins, pulldowns, seated rows, heavy dumbbell rows, T-bars and more; I did it all in my quest for width. I averaged 20-25 sets per workout. Though my back improved after several months, I just wasn’t getting the results I thought I would.


Then I met Dave “Onions” Goodman. Onions was a serious rock-climber who had the freaky ability, and even freakier desire, to eat a whole onion like an apple. Gregg Valentino gave him his appropriate nickname. At any rate, for a guy who wasn’t even a bodybuilder, his lats were absolutely insane and the envy of every guy in the gym. Yet, in support of his sport, all he did to train his back was wide-grip chins. Having grown tired of my tedious routine and despondent over my poor return on investment in over-the-top back training, I gave it up and just hung with Dave. I figured it didn’t matter, because my lats weren’t growing much anyway. Add to that, girls loved Dave and would always hang around him, so it was an added incentive to stick with him for his workouts. All we would do were chins. Mostly wide-grip and some with a moderate grip, but after getting strong enough, I started hanging weight off my belt for added resistance. Usually we would get in about 8 to 10 sets. Along with a set or two of dumbbell pullovers to finish, this was all we would do for back. We did this on average twice every week to 10 days. I loved it because it was such a departure from my previous efforts on back, plus I just loved hanging with Onions!
Then, after a few months, I got a big surprise— big lats. I’m not kidding, either. It was literally a shock when they arrived. I mean it was like just one day and pow! They were there. Guys at the gym commented first. Even my mother noticed! I was so excited that I had to repeatedly stare at them in these mirrors I had rigged up in my basement so I could see my lats. It was the fastest I ever remember a muscle responding. I felt like one of those chicks after getting a boob job and the wraps finally come off. The difference here was that my lats didn’t come courtesy of any plastic surgeon. In sharp contrast, they were the result of me having inadvertently applied an advanced training technique.


Perhaps the most enjoyable part of this experience was the fact that prior to my training with Onions, I had worked so hard, to no avail. It wasn’t until I backed off the number of sets and increased the frequency of training that I saw results. So make time to take stock of your routine with special attention to the body parts that are not responding as well as you think they could. Look at the frequency of training and the total number of sets. It might be that high-frequency training is just what the doctor orders.
kp1512
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 10502
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:26 am
Location: London \ Manchester - UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby Richard on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:30 pm

Less is better :)
Richard
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 3160
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:53 pm

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby Dtlv74 on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:31 pm

Is interesting timing that you post this now... two weeks ago I started performing this high frequency training routine (slightly modified). Is difficult at first to feel like you are doing enough, but now I'm at the start of the third week am starting to feel very strong and good - definitely not overtraining and am starting to see growth on it too... although my training has been almost non existant for the last couple of months so right now i'd grow again on anything.
User avatar
Dtlv74
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 3043
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: SW England

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby health4ni on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:47 pm

I too have changed completely over the past few months. MY training is either Upper, Lower, Upper, Lower (3 or 4 sessions a week) OR full Body 3 times a week (current prog).

Muscles seem to be "back to normal" (fully recovered) after 48hrs so can be trained again; just use different exercises for the same body part (BB press, DB press, ring pressups as an example).

It works really well. Very good for fast results and fat loss if done right. I use full body or upper/lower progs with my clients (when in the gym).
Cluster Training
http://health4ni.com/ :: BSD Discount Code: BSD6505
User avatar
health4ni
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:58 am
Location: Belfast, UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby Max on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:57 pm

I think the key to building back shape is elbow angle. As in for the teres major minor / width you need to flare the elbows outwards. For back thickness (inner trap/rhomboid and lats) then draw the elbows down to the front.

Personally I respond better to what I haven't done in a while. The most effective training splits for me are;
upper/lower
Full body split (chest/back/delts/ etc)

While loading principles are;
Tempo times at a rep sceme 3*10 etc same weight
HIT
FST
Rest pause/DC

Alternating the above I allways seem to beable to maniplulate hypertrophy.
Pb's: Bench:140*10 - DL 260*2 - Squat to // 232.5*3
User avatar
Max
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 2142
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:18 pm

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby kp1512 on Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:03 pm

I think the multi freq can work as long as you dont go to failure on the sets but make them in the 3set range where you ALWAYS add a rap during the blast phase? This is where I think DC probably fails as it can pretty much wipe alot of people out traiing to failure

As I mentioned in my log - Ive been doing some odd thinks such as training shoulders 2x per week but on the 2nd time only doing 3 sets of like 40kg dumbells for 3 x 10. This isnt my top weight but its enough over the 3 sets to fry them for them to recover in 3 odd days. My arms ive added like 5 sets of 10 bb curls with 15 a side on the Oly bar and i do a kind of cheat reps for the 5 sets - and again its worked really well. I am going to continue this and may even juggle my routine abit
kp1512
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 10502
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:26 am
Location: London \ Manchester - UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby Dtlv74 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:35 am

Max wrote:I think the key to building back shape is elbow angle. As in for the teres major minor / width you need to flare the elbows outwards. For back thickness (inner trap/rhomboid and lats) then draw the elbows down to the front.


Agree with this - is all about the angle with which you bring the upper arm towards the torso. The best chinning position i think for all around development is neutral/hammer grip with hands 6-12 inches apart... although variation is probably the most important technique to employ.
User avatar
Dtlv74
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 3043
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: SW England

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby Rilla on Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:14 am

Max wrote:Full body split (chest/back/delts/ etc)


Can you please clarify what this "full body split" is Max? :lol: :D
Big Choppa wrote:Rab's face probably scares the bar up. Explains his Shit deadlift as well cause the wants to stay away from his deformed bonce.
User avatar
Rilla
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 6513
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:11 pm

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby health4ni on Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:57 am

@KP: yeah, I agree about the failure and lower sets. I think for us advanced lifters we don't need to do more than 3 sets for most body parts. Sometimes only 2 (or even 1) set. Those 3 sets need to be balls-to-the-wall sets though, BUT never failing; no forced reps (as in a rep or two once we've passed failure with a spotters help etc).

Failure destroys the body so much that it's hard to recover and isn't good for high frequency training. I'm guessing that if you do go to proper failure on every set/session then only those that are on AAS will benefit due to the enhanced recovery abilities. Which is why those that do not take AAS should not use programs / styles of training that AAS users employ (as their main training methods anyway).
Cluster Training
http://health4ni.com/ :: BSD Discount Code: BSD6505
User avatar
health4ni
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:58 am
Location: Belfast, UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby kp1512 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:44 am

Scott - I think even on gear training to failure can lead to overtraining if done too much. I think as we say - staying in the natural failure range of 2-3 sets in the 8-12 is where its at. But if training a bodypart per normal than Id suspect training to failure on one set could be good? and then throw in the other few movements in the 2-3 set range? My shouldders have responded well to this style of training
kp1512
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 10502
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:26 am
Location: London \ Manchester - UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby health4ni on Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:56 am

I guess if it works for you then it works.

I've personally found that a failed rep fecks me up (did one yesterday by mistake as it were and was well pissed off).

I think 3-12 rep range periodised is best if looking for strength & size gains. Mostly 5-12 tbh. But 3-5 is great for strength. My training is currently 3 full-body sessions like this: Day 1: 10-12 reps mainly. Day 2: 8-10 reps. Day 3: 6-8 reps. Mostly 3 sets.

In 4 weeks it'll be changed to 9-11, 7-9, 5-7.

I'm quite excited about all this. It feels well good so far.
Cluster Training
http://health4ni.com/ :: BSD Discount Code: BSD6505
User avatar
health4ni
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:58 am
Location: Belfast, UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby Dtlv74 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:08 pm

The conclusion I've come to is that the most important thing is sustained progression - the intensity level /proximity to failure is almost a secondary factor to this. Of course it's much easier to progress if training way off failure but eventually you will reach it and hit a sticking point/overtraining. This is why I think you have to either a) change routines and styles frequently to allow for different types of progression, or b) organise a longterm periodised routine.

Can't comment on differences between natty training and juiced, but assume that AAS allow greater recovery and so better work capability when training close to failure.
User avatar
Dtlv74
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 3043
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: SW England

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby Rilla on Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:20 pm

So KP, did you just figure out that chins are a great exercise? :lol:
Big Choppa wrote:Rab's face probably scares the bar up. Explains his Shit deadlift as well cause the wants to stay away from his deformed bonce.
User avatar
Rilla
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 6513
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:11 pm

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby Rab on Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:24 pm

When you say "figured out" i presume you mean he read something that convinced him they are great Rilla?

Theres no way KP can pull himself up with the poundage he's packing :lol:
Image
User avatar
Rab
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 7939
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:11 pm
Location: Glasgow

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby kp1512 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:35 pm

Rilla wrote:So KP, did you just figure out that chins are a great exercise? :lol:


hmm no always knew they were - but ive never rated wide grip chins as its limited range of motion - but then if you are looking at the outer lats maybe you dont need the full range.
kp1512
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 10502
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:26 am
Location: London \ Manchester - UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby kp1512 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:36 pm

Rab wrote:When you say "figured out" i presume you mean he read something that convinced him they are great Rilla?

Theres no way KP can pull himself up with the poundage he's packing :lol:


shut your mooouuuf.
kp1512
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 10502
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:26 am
Location: London \ Manchester - UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby health4ni on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:02 pm

kp1512 wrote:
Rilla wrote:So KP, did you just figure out that chins are a great exercise? :lol:


hmm no always knew they were - but ive never rated wide grip chins as its limited range of motion - but then if you are looking at the outer lats maybe you dont need the full range.
lol that's the crap someone says that cannot do them. Trust me, all pull-ups/chins build a big strong back. Period.
Cluster Training
http://health4ni.com/ :: BSD Discount Code: BSD6505
User avatar
health4ni
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:58 am
Location: Belfast, UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby kp1512 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:29 pm

health4ni wrote:
kp1512 wrote:
Rilla wrote:So KP, did you just figure out that chins are a great exercise? :lol:


hmm no always knew they were - but ive never rated wide grip chins as its limited range of motion - but then if you are looking at the outer lats maybe you dont need the full range.
lol that's the crap someone says that cannot do them. Trust me, all pull-ups/chins build a big strong back. Period.


i dont think its crap mate - the medium grip pulldown activates more muscle fibres in the back then the wide grip - this is clear from the movement and limitations of the arms.......hence why its a good outside lat builder.....
kp1512
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 10502
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:26 am
Location: London \ Manchester - UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby health4ni on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:37 pm

^^ I hope you mean pullup and not lat pulldown?
Cluster Training
http://health4ni.com/ :: BSD Discount Code: BSD6505
User avatar
health4ni
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:58 am
Location: Belfast, UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby Max on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:43 pm

health4ni wrote:^^ I hope you mean pullup and not lat pulldown?


LOL
Pb's: Bench:140*10 - DL 260*2 - Squat to // 232.5*3
User avatar
Max
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 2142
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:18 pm

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby kp1512 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:49 pm

health4ni wrote:^^ I hope you mean pullup and not lat pulldown?


i did get them mixed - but both - the medium grip pullup and the medium grip pull down
kp1512
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 10502
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:26 am
Location: London \ Manchester - UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby health4ni on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:53 pm

no way is sitting on your arse pulling a bar down to you better in any respect than pulling yourself up to bar. I don't care what the EMG scan says or indeed some big bellied Pro BBer.

This is also a great time to use that word "functional". Far more functional and thus useful to be able to do pull-ups/chins than be able to shift a lot of weight whilst sitting down. And at the same time you'll build muscle and get stronger.
Cluster Training
http://health4ni.com/ :: BSD Discount Code: BSD6505
User avatar
health4ni
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:58 am
Location: Belfast, UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby kp1512 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:56 pm

in relation to it verses the wide grip - they both are superior for back development; allegedly. probably due to the limited range of motion.
kp1512
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 10502
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:26 am
Location: London \ Manchester - UK

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby Rilla on Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:16 pm

Please KP just stop. Right now you're telling us that a minor change in grip will make an open-chain movement better than a closed-closedchain movement? I'm not trying to be an ignorant pig or anything, but I just can't take that seriously.
Big Choppa wrote:Rab's face probably scares the bar up. Explains his Shit deadlift as well cause the wants to stay away from his deformed bonce.
User avatar
Rilla
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 6513
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:11 pm

Re: Wide Grip Chins

Postby kp1512 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:26 pm

Rilla wrote:Please KP just stop. Right now you're telling us that a minor change in grip will make an open-chain movement better than a closed-closedchain movement? I'm not trying to be an ignorant pig or anything, but I just can't take that seriously.


lol

Put your arms out in the air wider as if you was going to do a wide grip pull down. Now bring them down to the side as if doing the pull down or pullup - you will notice that due to the wide grip you will not be able to pull/push your elbows down and back and thus create a more solid contraction for the back

now do the same thing with shoulder width grip. and you will see that the arms and elbows can be pulled down further and the contraction in the back is far far greater - whether its pull down or pullup.

The latter will allow the elbows to be pushed further down and allow the back to contract further.

Wide grip pullups or pulldowns limit the range of motion and thus are not effective for all of the back when in comparison to medium grip pullups or pulldowns. however for outside lat development they would appear to be better

and that change isnt minor - its major as it totally limits the way in which you can bring the elbows down and back - and thus contract the back

i thought this was common knowledge. :!:
kp1512
Ultimate Contributor
 
Posts: 10502
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:26 am
Location: London \ Manchester - UK

Next

Return to BodyBuilding

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 22 guests

cron