Which way to go...

by **NHeaven** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:47 pm

OK i'll try not to waffle on but here goes,
Last month i went to the Doc re feeling tired all of the time and generally feeling that something's not right,
i had bloods done for Thyroid, Test, Gluten intolerance and various things that the doc threw in.
I had a letter back saying my serum test is slightly low (the test was done at 12.40pm).
Last week i was re tested and they've told me "normal levels no further action".(tested at 9.30am)
Now the low test thing kinda would explain the tiredness etc that i've been feeling, so i booked in to discuss with the doc next month.
However... The way i see it i can 1. Wait and see doc and push for an appt. with an endocrinologist.
2. Carry on as i am with diet etc hope things even out as i'm not as tired as i was at xmas.
3....250mils test every week/10 days and see how/if things improve.
Any ideas suggestions or voices of reason...let me know.
Cheers
Neil.

by **Craig** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:58 pm

Well I guess I'll start off by saying I have suggested that the doc should do the proper tests and actually check, not just test but:

SHBG
free androgen index
prolactin

and for thyroid

free t3
free t4
TSH

My ex got her thyroid levels tested in the UK and the doc said everything was fine, we both new this was BS so when she was back in Poland she got retested and her T3 was low and T4 critically low. I have zero faith in GP's.

by **NHeaven** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:04 pm

Right they tested for Prolactin last week, and Tsh was done originally Doc said i'd have to pay for free t3/t4 tests, i asked the nurse who did the bloods what they were testing for last week and she said Hormones and prolactin.. She couldn't bring up on her screen what the previous levels had come out at.

by **NHeaven** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:06 pm

I'm not doubting your suggestions buddy, just throwing it out there for discussion as i'm still pretty confused

by **Craig** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:40 pm

The problem is as follows

1. "Normal range" in the NHS can still leave you feeling like shit, always get the exact test results, don't trust them to tell you wants normal.

2. This is only one avenue, it could be due to adrenal fatigue, food allergies (the NHS tests are useless for this BTW), poor digestive capabilities............. all we can do is explore every avenue, expect a few other members to come up with other avenues, the first thing I told you was it would not be easy to solve..........hell your GP's basicly admitted there's nothing they can do!

Working nights is only compounding the situation BTW, sorry to mention this as no doubt you have no other realistic option.

by **NHeaven** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:06 pm

Funny thing is i actually feel better since i've been on nights !

Adrenal fatigue food allergies etc... feels like i have the lot !
I think part of the problem in my mind is that if i start jabbing (i can get hold of enanth very easily) short term i will start feeling and looking better, it's head and heart again, guess thats why i'm posting about it... I find it quite embarrasing to admit i may have low test for some reason.

by **simon m** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:10 pm

Diet can play a large part as does stress with test levels.

How old are you?

What's your diet like - are you a fatty?

What's your training like as well?

I'm sure there's improvements which can be made without the need for roids

by **Craig** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:12 pm

NHeaven wrote:Funny thing is i actually feel better since i've been on nights !
Adrenal fatigue food allergies etc... feels like i have the lot !
I think part of the problem in my mind is that if i start jabbing (i can get hold of enanth very easily) short term i will start feeling and looking better, it's head and heart again, guess thats why i'm posting about it... I find it quite embarrasing to admit i may have low test for some reason.

My advice is way to bias on this being an AAS user, I'd jab the test just in case lol but I 100% know this is bad advice to give someone. Its not how 99% of the population would deal with this issue and could compound the problem in the long run.

Good points Simon, he has low libido, low energy - keeps falling asleep etc, low drive to do stuff in general..................... symptoms to well a lot of things.

by **simon m** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:16 pm

Craig wrote:
NHeaven wrote:Funny thing is i actually feel better since i've been on nights !
Adrenal fatigue food allergies etc... feels like i have the lot !
I think part of the problem in my mind is that if i start jabbing (i can get hold of enanth very easily) short term i will start feeling and looking better, it's head and heart again, guess thats why i'm posting about it... I find it quite embarrasing to admit i may have low test for some reason.

My advice is way to bias on this being an AAS user, I'd jab the test just in case lol but I 100% know this is bad advice to give someone. Its not how 99% of the population would deal with this issue and could compound the problem in the long run.

Good points Simon, he has low libido, low energy - keeps falling asleep etc, low drive to do stuff in general..................... symptoms to well a lot of things.

Diabeties will have been tested for, Iron Levels etc., so that ruls them out

I'm just wondering if it could be stress related.

Diet and lifestyle info needed.

by **kp1512** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:16 pm

Neil

If you can get your levels back im sure we can pretty much give a credible response - if your test levels were 10-12mmol then they see that as normal - but for a health guy its not...you should be hovering about 15-17...if memeory serves me right

by **health4ni** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:27 pm

I really don't think that AAS is the way to go at the moment.

You're almost certainly zinc deficient and that really does have a big effect on testosterone levels. Got on ZMA or better still a top quality zinc supp with a few different types of zinc compounds that end in "ate".

Lots of Green Tea Extract; at least 2x500mg tabs 3 times a day. Great for improving androgen levels and also powerful anti-oxidant.

Rhodiola Rosea is great too; as you know I presume.

Stomach acid levels are probably low too; that can affect androgen levels. Get a good digestive enzyme.

And make yourself more alkaline. A good Greens drink or lime/lemon juice in all water. And drink lots too. 3 litres of water or water+Greens or water + lime/lemon juice per day minimum.

And a good multi-vitamin/mineral formula.

If you did all that I reckon you'd notice a big difference. And tbh it's not that hard to do it either. And not that expensive. And anyway, what price do you put on your health?

by **Craig** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:31 pm

He's been using ZMA but when Zinc deficient a higher dose is need. As said on the supps thread zinc and mag need to be taken separately to get the right doses.

by **health4ni** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:37 pm

Yes agree. Hence me saying that a separate good quality zinc supp is best. And probably if each cap has about 25-30mg in it I'd personally take it 3-4 times a day for 1 month then drop to 2-3 times. But a Zinc Tally test is best to monitor zinc levels (cheaply anyway).

i know we disagree about when to take zinc & mag, but you're the only one I've heard that from (so far) and I've managed to get myself, my wife & a few clients sorted with mag & zinc how I do it. Although, it's not really a biggy in not taking zinc with mag, when mag is taken with last 2 meals of the day... esp when people should be eating 5 times a day at least.

by **Craig** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:40 pm

health4ni wrote:Yes agree. Hence me saying that a separate good quality zinc supp is best. And probably if each cap has about 25-30mg in it I'd personally take it 3-4 times a day for 1 month then drop to 2-3 times. But a Zinc Tally test is best to monitor zinc levels (cheaply anyway).

i know we disagree about when to take zinc & mag, but you're the only one I've heard that from (so far) and I've managed to get myself, my wife & a few clients sorted with mag & zinc how I do it. Although, it's not really a biggy in not taking zinc with mag, when mag is taken with last 2 meals of the day... esp when people should be eating 5 times a day at least.

ye the disagreement is only a technicality Scott :mrgreen:

Same for the zinc though 100mg to get back to normal and drop down to 30-50mg when there. Zincx easy to solve, takes less than 6 weeks, a mag deficiency can take around a year to solve!

by **health4ni** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:46 pm

what's your maintenance for magnesium mate?

by **upright** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:58 pm

NHeaven wrote:Funny thing is i actually feel better since i've been on nights !
Adrenal fatigue food allergies etc... feels like i have the lot !
I think part of the problem in my mind is that if i start jabbing (i can get hold of enanth very easily) short term i will start feeling and looking better, it's head and heart again, guess thats why i'm posting about it... I find it quite embarrasing to admit i may have low test for some reason.

Is working nights allowing you to get more sleep than before or ae you sleeping the same? I work nights and it sucks. I've been doing it 12 years now and can tell you at 18-24, parties every night off(4 in 8) it was no problem. Touching 30 now and it's wearing very thin and so am I. Depends what job you're doing too, if it's anual labour, expect to be screwed. Eat and don't kill carbs until at least halfway through the shift. Simple trib has worked for me but that must be cycled as the effects of it will wear off after a few weeks and after a month expect to feel no better for it. Try standing rather than sitting for breakfast, helps to have a more active start. I find I myeslf forcing myself through the day half of the time, come home time I often could just pull up in a layby and zzz right there.

by **Tall** on Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:37 pm

NHeaven wrote:OK i'll try not to waffle on but here goes,
Last month i went to the Doc re feeling tired all of the time and generally feeling that something's not right,
i had bloods done for Thyroid, Test, Gluten intolerance and various things that the doc threw in.
I had a letter back saying my serum test is slightly low (the test was done at 12.40pm).
Last week i was re tested and they've told me "normal levels no further action".(tested at 9.30am)
Now the low test thing kinda would explain the tiredness etc that i've been feeling, so i booked in to discuss with the doc next month.
However... The way i see it i can 1. Wait and see doc and push for an appt. with an endocrinologist.
2. Carry on as i am with diet etc hope things even out as i'm not as tired as i was at xmas.
3....250mils test every week/10 days and see how/if things improve.
Any ideas suggestions or voices of reason...let me know.
Cheers
Neil.

Shooting from the hip - are you chronically overtrained/burned out?

by **NHeaven** on Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:26 am

simon m wrote:Diet can play a large part as does stress with test levels.

How old are you? 35

What's your diet like - are you a fatty? Yeah and carb sensitive on Keto diet with 1 refeed per week...Feeling so much better without carbs (i know low carb doesn't help test levels though)

What's your training like as well? Weights 3x per week push, pull ,legs. 2x 40 mins cardio 3-5 x times per week

I'm sure there's improvements which can be made without the need for roids

by **NHeaven** on Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:35 am

health4ni wrote:I really don't think that AAS is the way to go at the moment.

You're almost certainly zinc deficient and that really does have a big effect on testosterone levels. Got on ZMA or better still a top quality zinc supp with a few different types of zinc compounds that end in "ate".
I've been using MP's(sorry Craig) ZMA 3 caps before bed

Lots of Green Tea Extract; at least 2x500mg tabs 3 times a day. Great for improving androgen levels and also powerful anti-oxidant.
Wasn't sure if green tea would cause problems with suggested adrenal fatigue ?

Rhodiola Rosea is great too; as you know I presume.
HMM Don't know if this is doing much, but then i'm not falling asleep as much when i shouldn't be.

Stomach acid levels are probably low too; that can affect androgen levels. Get a good digestive enzyme.

And make yourself more alkaline. A good Greens drink or lime/lemon juice in all water. And drink lots too. 3 litres of water or water+Greens or water + lime/lemon juice per day minimum.
I'm drinking at least that much... How much lemon juice ?

And a good multi-vitamin/mineral formula.

If you did all that I reckon you'd notice a big difference. And tbh it's not that hard to do it either. And not that expensive. And anyway, what price do you put on your health?

by **simon m** on Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:37 am

NHeaven wrote:
simon m wrote:Diet can play a large part as does stress with test levels.

How old are you? 35

What's your diet like - are you a fatty? Yeah and carb sensitive on Keto diet with 1 refeed per week...Feeling so much better without carbs (i know low carb doesn't help test levels though)

What's your training like as well? Weights 3x per week push, pull ,legs. 2x 40 mins cardio 3-5 x times per week

I'm sure there's improvements which can be made without the need for roids

Okay, age doesn't help I'm 40 and test levels are lower than they used to to. Upright said try Trib and I agree and Health's advice copied below is bloody brilliant. Utilise this and I'm sure you'll be feeling much better in the near future:

I really don't think that AAS is the way to go at the moment.

You're almost certainly zinc deficient and that really does have a big effect on testosterone levels. Got on ZMA or better still a top quality zinc supp with a few different types of zinc compounds that end in "ate".

Lots of Green Tea Extract; at least 2x500mg tabs 3 times a day. Great for improving androgen levels and also powerful anti-oxidant.

Rhodiola Rosea is great too; as you know I presume.

Stomach acid levels are probably low too; that can affect androgen levels. Get a good digestive enzyme.

And make yourself more alkaline. A good Greens drink or lime/lemon juice in all water. And drink lots too. 3 litres of water or water+Greens or water + lime/lemon juice per day minimum.

And a good multi-vitamin/mineral formula.

by **NHeaven** on Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:45 am

Is working nights allowing you to get more sleep than before or ae you sleeping the same? I work nights and it sucks. I've been doing it 12 years now and can tell you at 18-24, parties every night off(4 in 8) it was no problem. Touching 30 now and it's wearing very thin and so am I. Depends what job you're doing too, if it's anual labour, expect to be screwed. Eat and don't kill carbs until at least halfway through the shift. Simple trib has worked for me but that must be cycled as the effects of it will wear off after a few weeks and after a month expect to feel no better for it. Try standing rather than sitting for breakfast, helps to have a more active start. I find I myeslf forcing myself through the day half of the time, come home time I often could just pull up in a layby and zzz right there.[/quote]

i usually get between 6 and 7 hours, whether on days or nights... apart from about 2 years i've done nights for the last 12ish years, i'm a printer so i'm on my feet and on the go for the whole 9 hours.
got to the point at xmas where i'd wake up, go downstairs in the morning and go back to sleep on the sofa ! i was so tired that i stopped training for a few months.

by **NHeaven** on Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:50 am

Shooting from the hip - are you chronically overtrained/burned out?

suspected adrenal fatigue...yes mate

by **health4ni** on Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:51 am

NHeaven wrote: I've been using MP's(sorry Craig) ZMA 3 caps before bed

better to use a single zinc supp imo. Once levels are back then ZMA is probably ok.

NHeaven wrote:Wasn't sure if green tea would cause problems with suggested adrenal fatigue ?

not that I know of.

NHeaven wrote:HMM Don't know if this [Rhodiola Rosea] is doing much, but then i'm not falling asleep as much when i shouldn't be.

If you are using BSD's RR then start with a low dosage (100mg) twice a day. Once 20mins before breakfast & again 20mins before lunch. Too much RR and it has the opposite effect (for the vast majority of people). Give it it time; adaptogens can take up to 14 days to feel their effects. And sometimes that make you feel worse for that period.

NHeaven wrote:I'm drinking at least that much... How much lemon juice ?

Lemon or Lime juice (Lime is better imo). 1/2 freshly squeezed organic lemon in 1 litre of water. Or 1/4 to 1/2 freshly squeezed lime juice in 1 litre of water.

Also, please figure out how to quote properly. It was quite a hassle to sort out your post. It'll make reading such things far easier in future

by **NHeaven** on Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:46 am

Ok i've got a little list of stuff i need to get and i'll see how it goes. With regards to the RR it's from simply supp's and i take 2x 250mg a day spaced apart lke you said.
We've only got a bottle of lemon juice atm so i'll have to make do until i can grab some from the shop... Funilly enough a p.t friend of mine used to recommend putting chopped up lemon's into a 2 litre bottle of water..
Apologies for the bad quoting not been to bed yet and i was trying to be clever answering questions as they came

Thanks to all of you who've posted.

by **Morba** on Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:26 am

Neil,

please, learn not to write your replies within the quote boxes, makes it harder to read what you are saying :<

Which way to go...

Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Re: Which way to go...

Who is online