Is there anyone on here who trains without any or uses only very minimal supplementation?

I have just done an inventory check and I'm down to roughly three weeks EAA's and BCAA's (which were a welcome birthday present!) and about a weeks worth of whey. I also only have six fish oil caps left and about a dozen vit c and vit e tabs! Due to all me not having much available money at the moment (with all my savings sat in my bank in Italy) and a few upcoming expenses here am going to looking at a period of training without any supp's to back up my nutrition.

So... almost repeating a thread started by MJ on MP a few years ago, what do people think about using skimmed milk as a protein/carb source around the workout?

The Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition are pretty hot on it in this article but what do you folks think?

Am thinking 300ml/half a pint before the session and the same after with a few added raw eggs.

I remember seeing a report showing chocolate milkshake to be excellent PWO nutrition. If you can stomach milk then yes I think it's good stuff, I've drank gallons of it over the years.

Buy the tins of mackerel in tom sauce from supermarket, I think they're about £0.40 per can. Almost 20g protein each with a whopping 3.5g of Omega-3 aswell.

As for vitamin tabs I doubt you'll miss those, I've stopped taking them anyway.

The only supplements I've used for the past 4 months is an MPC shake and 6 omega 3 tabs in the morning. I don't have anything around workouts, the only difference is the DOMS (can last 4-5 days after legs). Strength is constantly improving and I'm gaining muscle. I've been thinking about using milk around workouts as well, I do have quite a lot during the day already so be interesting to see if it has any effect on recovery if I have it PWO instead.

On reflection, my best period of gains came at a time when supplementation was kept to nothing more than whey, recovery drink and a generic multi. There were no o3's of any kind in my diet, no fad crap like no/test boosters, no mpc before bed and defo no singular aminos/vits/minerals. They were happier days, wasn't as mental then as I am now. I would defo include some milk if only I could stomach the lactose!

Yes I remember reading the chocolate milk thing too:

LITTLE FALLS, N.J., June 2 -- When it comes to muscle recovery, a glass of low-fat chocolate milk after exercise is just as good as a high-carbohydrate energy drink, researchers say.
Action Points

* <LI class=APP>Explain that a small study of athletes found that low-fat chocolate milk provided better muscle recovery after intense training compared with a high-carbohydrate energy drink.
* Note that the study was published as an abstract and presented orally at a conference. These data and conclusions should be considered to be preliminary until published in a peer-reviewed journal.


In a small study of soccer players, low-fat chocolate milk consumption provided better muscle recovery after intense training compared than an isocaloric, high-carbohydrate drink, Michael J. Saunders, Ph.D., of James Madison University, and colleagues reported at the American College of Sports Medicine meeting in Seattle.

They said fitness experts are increasingly calling chocolate milk an effective option for postexercise recovery as studies show it to be just as effective as some commercial sports drinks in helping athletes re-energize after a workout.

To assess the potential benefits of chocolate milk, the researchers conducted a small study of 13 male college soccer players who served as their own controls by completing two intervention cycles.

Each consisted of one week of normal training, followed by four days of more intense training.

Immediately after each day of intense training, the players downed a high-carbohydrate drink in one intervention and chocolate milk in the other.

At days two and four of intense training, the researchers measured creatine kinase and myoglobin levels, muscle soreness, mental and physical fatigue, peak isometric force of the quadriceps, and leg-extension repetitions.

The researchers found that serum creatinine kinase levels -- a marker of muscle damage -- were significantly lower after drinking chocolate milk than they were after the high-carb beverage.

After two days of intense training, levels were 343.5 u/l for chocolate milk compared with 449.9 u/l for the carbohydrate drink. After four days, levels dropped to 316.9 u/l and 431.6 u/l, respectively.

Mean changes in peak isometric force of the quadriceps values also tended to be greater after milk than after the carbohydrate beverage, but the difference was not statistically significant.

There were no differences between beverages with regard to soccer-specific performance, muscle soreness, or mental or physical fatigue.
The researchers said the results indicate that low-fat chocolate milk is effective in muscle recovery after intense training.

I think you'll be fine as long as you keep eating a reasonable amount of wholefoods. I'm only using whey first and last thing in the day and small amounts of amino's pre and post. I reckon some egg white could easily double up as an amino sub pre and post.

30min pre 2 banana
15min pre 4 egg white and some haribo

Post workout eat as normal. Theres no real need for supps apart from pre and during workout nutrition unless your body is ill in some way. It would still be benificial to take some carbs during WO even if you have no aminos to go with it, I'll let you figure out which source for that.

Egg whites are a very fast acting protein, elevating blood amino quickly so they will do as well as whey pre.


Edit: Can't see how milk fits into the equation TBH, its not a fast protein, its not easily digested, its only place would be PWO when as said a solid meal will do just as well.

It seems that a lot of us are using minimal supplementation at the moment! I am using whey and glutimine pre and post workout and eating pretty sensibly. Seems to be working ok.

Craig wrote:Edit: Can't see how milk fits into the equation TBH, its not a fast protein, its not easily digested, its only place would be PWO when as said a solid meal will do just as well.

It wouldn't make sense to swap out whey for eggs in Dev's case because eggs would cost a lot more money for the same amount of protein?

Milk is cheapy cheap....

Yeah whey, fish oils, cissus and a multivit are all I'm doing.

Bison wrote:

Craig wrote:Edit: Can't see how milk fits into the equation TBH, its not a fast protein, its not easily digested, its only place would be PWO when as said a solid meal will do just as well.

It wouldn't make sense to swap out whey for eggs in Dev's case because eggs would cost a lot more money for the same amount of protein?

Milk is cheapy cheap....

He wants to use no supplements so egg whites where the only option as far as a fast easy to digest protein. Milk is cheap but really a poor option around workout.

I just completed the first session of a new routine (seems good i may post it up, lol) and all i took was this;

Pre 20 mins - 3 large egg whites, glass of water with effervescent multi vit tab, heaped desert spoon of caster sugar

During - glass of squash with a little extra sugar, 1g electrolyte powder

Post - 3 egg whites, water, banana

Will eat a decent sized protein/carb meal in about an hour.

I had a good pump on the session actually and felt pretty charged - possibly a combination of the protein, sugars and b vits in the multivit all hitting at once. Tomorrow will be the DOMS test though... will be interesting to see how bad i ache!

Dtlv74 wrote:I just completed the first session of a new routine (seems good i may post it up, lol) and all i took was this;

Pre 20 mins - 3 large egg whites, glass of water with effervescent multi vit tab, heaped desert spoon of caster sugar

During - glass of squash with a little extra sugar, 1g electrolyte powder

Post - 3 egg whites, water, banana

Will eat a decent sized protein/carb meal in about an hour.

I had a good pump on the session actually and felt pretty charged - possibly a combination of the protein, sugars and b vits in the multivit all hitting at once. Tomorrow will be the DOMS test though... will be interesting to see how bad i ache!

You won't feel a thing ........lies, have you read Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale thoughts on post workout carbs?

I have also been limiting my supplement usage and increasing the use of whole foods which give the same benefit. I have however kept an essential mix for different situations.

Craig wrote:

Dtlv74 wrote:I just completed the first session of a new routine (seems good i may post it up, lol) and all i took was this;

Pre 20 mins - 3 large egg whites, glass of water with effervescent multi vit tab, heaped desert spoon of caster sugar

During - glass of squash with a little extra sugar, 1g electrolyte powder

Post - 3 egg whites, water, banana

Will eat a decent sized protein/carb meal in about an hour.

I had a good pump on the session actually and felt pretty charged - possibly a combination of the protein, sugars and b vits in the multivit all hitting at once. Tomorrow will be the DOMS test though... will be interesting to see how bad i ache!

You won't feel a thing ........lies, have you read Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale thoughts on post workout carbs?

What do you mean won't feel a thing? I think you can definitely feel a difference between exercise with nutrition around the session and without it, especially if training hard (which I hope i am, lol).

I might have read Pasquales stuff but can't remember specifically. link?

I think whether to take post workout carbs depend upon how you train and what your goals are... someone bulking will have different needs to someone cutting, and someone training in the lactate threshold will have different needs to someone who isn't. Number of sessions per week and levels of other exercise also factors in. No one size fits all approach IMO.

I was just joking Det.

Heres the link

http://metabolicdiet.com/pdfs/articles/ ... oteins.pdf

do you think he's right about the change in insulin sensitivity with PWO carbs?

Craig wrote:I was just joking Det.

Heres the link

http://metabolicdiet.com/pdfs/articles/ ... oteins.pdf

do you think he's right about the change in insulin sensitivity with PWO carbs?

Was going to reply to this last night but the girlfriend distracted me with something more interesting

I agree with that article... but i think you put the wrong link? It seems to be about fast vs slow proteins and not really about carbs

Am not sure about insulin senssitvity post workout... I know it's often said that exercise increases insulin sensitivity but i think this claim is actually a little misleading. Here is my take on all this based on how i interpret it all. If i've got stuff wrong folks please tell me... i try to approach this with an open mind.

Is all to do with GLUT4. As we all know, GLUT4 is the carrier molecule that sits inside our cells and collects glucose as it enters the cell/passes through the cell membrane and takes it deeper inside the cell for use as conversion to energy - or for conversion to fat in a fat cell. Normally, most of the GLUT4 sits deep in the cell but two things bring it to the cell membrane, insulin and exercise.

In the case of insulin, the insulin in our blood attaches to a receptor site on the outside of the cell membrane and this causes the membrane to change and open up in a way that allows glucose to diffuse/pass through. At the same time the activated receptor sets off a second reaction which stimulates the GLUT4 to get busy and come and collect the glucose.

Now the reason why you can take up more blood sugar after training is because in the muscles you have just worked, the cells are low on energy so have already stimulated the GLUT4 to be looking for glucose - and when insulin and plasma glucose are present too, you have an even greater level of GLUT4 moving to the membrane as the two together cause maximum GLUT4 translocation.

This means increased glucose uptake but, if you think about it, it isn't really an increase in insulin sensitivity at all - it's just an increase in GLUT4. An increase in insulin sensitivity would be a change in insulin receptor site activity but this doesn't actually happen. Study.

So my take on pwo carbs is that the body is looking for them, as suggested by the exercise induced response of GLUT4. Also, that carbs in this condition won't down regulate insulin sensitivity because they aren't straining the pancreas to produce extra insulin to force the glucose into the cells - the extra GLUT4 makes it easier not harder!

Having said that however is important to seperate this process, one of replenishing energy stores, from other processes going on post workout. Carbs post workout are not contributary to protein synthesis or new growth, although the calories do spare muscle tissue from being broken down as well as prevent protein eaten from being converted to fuel. This last point is important i think as it means that if you consume protein on its own pwo, a certain amount of it won't contribute to the rebuild/protein synthesis processes it will instead be converted to glucose. This is not a catabolic process, but it is a waste of protein.

Of course if cutting, and seriously trying to drop bodyfat, then carbs should be kept to a minimum - and their presence pwo will reduce fat burining at this time. But if someone trains for performance, or who is bulking, or who is maintaining their current b/fat levels it makes sense to me to provide a few carbs (i disagree with the high carb glycogen replenishment strategies unless training for endurance events) and give the body what its asking for...although no serious harm if you don't take them.

As for carbs pre workout, i think in this situation the insulin secreted as a result does actually help anti-catabolic processes... but am tired of typing now and this post is probably too drawn out and boring already!

Craig wrote:

Bison wrote:

Craig wrote:Edit: Can't see how milk fits into the equation TBH, its not a fast protein, its not easily digested, its only place would be PWO when as said a solid meal will do just as well.

It wouldn't make sense to swap out whey for eggs in Dev's case because eggs would cost a lot more money for the same amount of protein?

Milk is cheapy cheap....

He wants to use no supplements so egg whites where the only option as far as a fast easy to digest protein. Milk is cheap but really a poor option around workout.

I may have read it wrong but I thought the point of the thread and no supplements was down to tightening of his budget? In which case it wouldn't make sense to stop using whey and start using much more expensive egg whites...?

On the other hand milk is very cheap... agreed not the ideal solution or we'd all be using it but it's arguably the cheapest and best bag for buck.

Yes it's about doing it all as cheeply as possible. I must confess to just assuming that supp's were automatically going to be less economical to include... but whey might well be cheaper than buying additional eggs.

Will have to have a think about that

Yeah I don't think you can beat whey for value if on a high protein diet, certainly when you buy it in bulk. A 30g shake costs pennies.

Bison wrote:Buy the tins of mackerel in tom sauce from supermarket, I think they're about £0.40 per can. Almost 20g protein each with a whopping 3.5g of Omega-3 aswell.

Also if you aren't buying fish oils then that's why I suggested this earlier. A healthy dose of protein, lot's of fat and a days worth of high strength Omega-3. I usually buy them 3 for £1... great value and a must on a budget if you like mackerel.

Yes am off shopping now and cans of fish are close to top of the list

What kind of whey do folks suggest? Isolate, concentrate... or even a casein/whey blend? Hydolysed would be nice but beyond budget.

Remember i'm looking for something to take around the workout primarily, but also ideally one that could be used as a base for a quick MRP too.

I'd go for WPC80. You could either mix it with milk or if your budget allows then get some milk protein and mix it 50/50

I'd go with WPC80 personally. I did a cost exercise ages ago and found per serving BCAA's/EAA's were only slightly more expensive than WPC80 on a serving per serving basis so if Isolate is being considered then Amino's work out cheaper.

I don't even bother with MPC anymore as I simply add good oils to WPC to slow it down. I find the combination of WPC80 and Amino's a decent one and hard to beat cost wise.

Well casein hydro or EAA's would be the best around workouts but are too expensive even though you need small amounts to get the desired effect (something like 12g's). WPI is over priced for what it is, you need 3 times more of WPI than the CHY or EAA's so per serving it's even more expensive.

That just leaves WPC80........... well or egg whites , I wonder which is the faster protein? WPC80 is definatly the most versatile as it can also be used for mrps.

I've cut back on supps significantly as the cost of lots of them just didn't seem worth it, even though they did what they were suppsed to.

Just WPC, MPC, WMS, BCAAs or EAAs and creatine.

I use more dietary "supplements" now though - greens, him salts etc... and feel much better for it.