OK, I'm getting myself a bit confused (not hard!) and from confusion comes anxiety (for me)!

With the exception of Tuesdays where I train both in the morning and in the evening, all my training is early morning. With the help of you guys (thank you) I've got myself sorted for something good to have for the early morning training, and I do take Palatinose during.

However, given the really hard work I have put into getting my body composition to a level where I am happy and I'm maintaining well, I don't want to undo all that! As a result, I think I might not be eating in the best manner for performance.

As a rule, I have tried to leave carbs out of my evening meal entirely and minimal at lunch (except Tuesdays where I will have some brown rice/sweet potato etc). On my non training days (x2) I try to have virtually no carbs.

I'm not entirely sure this is working to be honest. I still seem to be lacking energy during my swims which is irritating me no end. Trying to get the balance with body composition and performance is taxing me somewhat!

Do I need to add in more carbs during the day and still leave my evening meal free of them? And on non training days should I be getting some carbs at least?

Less than 50g of carbs on non-training days before 3pm would be fine.

Are you getting enough good oils into you? I've found they really help with providing energy.

When (days & times) do you swim again?

Can someone explain the thinking behind not eating carbohydrates in the evening for body composition benefits in an isocalorific environment please.

Thanks Scott.

I train 6:00am to 7:30am in the mornings Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri. I also weight train on a Tuesday evening (a light session) at about 7:30pm. I weight train (heavy session) on a Sunday morning, usually about 9am when the gym opens. Hence days off are Wednesday and Saturday.

I tried your shake thing this morning and it seemed to sit with me OK. Great stuff!

I get plenty of good oils - with each meal I have some form of good quality oil or nuts/seeds and I have my Aliment fish oil in the morning and in the evening.

I will work out some low carb meals to go on the non-training days, thank you!

Pain - I will definitely have to leave someone else to attempt to answer you, I don't even understand the question!

Presumably you eat still vegetables in your evening meals? These are still carb sources allbeit in a small amount but shoulsn't be avoided or not be classed as zero carb. I'm training mornings as well most days but still happy to take on board carbs in the evening although I tend to cut off the majority but around 6pm. However I don't think there's any thing negative about eating some pm carbs if the choices are good; 1/3 cup of brown basmatic rice, a sweet potato or yam would make decent enough choices accompanied by a good selection of vegetables.

You need to bare in mind that cutting off carbs early afternoon pretty much leaves you with maybe 18 hours of no decent slow burning carb source for energy until your next training session. If you then take into account that you're swimming I think it's fair to say that there lies your answer for feeling low on energy.

Make small adjustments and assess how you feel with each adjustment and don't forget to use a mirror to judge composition. Also you'll need to get your head around that there will be some form of compromise to be made between optimum performance and composition and it may take a little time and fettling to reach a happy medium.

Thanks for this Alex. Much appreciated.

I think where I am at now is an achieveable level to maintain and perform well which is a good thing. I think I've pretty much beaten the obsession with very low body fat out of my brain because it just wasn't working performance wise.

Good point - I shouldn't class evening meals as zero carb because I do have veg with it, I always eat loads of it. What I meant was I have no grains, pulses, tubers etc.

I did think that my cutting off of the carbs was where a lot of my problem lies, but I guess the fear of "getting fat again" is, for me at least, still a definite issue. I may have a much better grasp on the ED now but it will always be there in one way or another.

I think I might add a small amount of good quality carbs to my evening meals and see how I get on, along with the other suggestion by Scott for some non training days. Perhaps even in the evening for a Wednesday because Thursday is sprint training and its a killer! I will report back in a couple of weeks. I wont be able to judge this weekend because I was a naughty girl and had a really yummy Indian and far too much wine on Saturday!

Pingu, the non-training day evening carbs could come from the beans/pulses/legumes like chickpeas, azuki beans, lentils too etc etc. Some carbs, but lots of fibre and protein also. Quinoa is good, and brown rice as Alex is good. Those food stuffs really fill you up and you'll not be tempted to eat later on (just an additional bonus).

I think once you start training longer than an hour you need carbs during exercise. And 1.5hrs in the pool is tough going. I guess really it's about finding what works for you in the morning that has enough decent carbs and protein & fats, but that doesn't cause it to sit on the stomach.

I'd also mix the during swimming carb drink with some greens + him salts (I know you use it, just saying ).

Pain wrote:Can someone explain the thinking behind not eating carbohydrates in the evening for body composition benefits in an isocalorific environment please.

Do you feel that avoiding carbs on an isocalorific diet (equal % of protein, carbs & fats for those that don't know) is a bad thing?

I've never been against some carbs at night. I often eat loads for example! But I'm lean already, have a fast metabolism, am trying to get bigger and they don't affect me as bad as some people.

Carbs in the evening time is often bad for people that are trying to lean up as the insulin release will cause greater fat storage since you're inactive for the following 8-12hrs. It also blunts growth hormone I believe which is useful for getting/staying lean.

Pain wrote:Can someone explain the thinking behind not eating carbohydrates in the evening for body composition benefits in an isocalorific environment please.

Because it just works....... silly reasoning I know

Lots of protein sources cause an insulin repsonse so its no clever hormonal thinking, just practical results, probably triggered in my mind by most people I've helped one on one have happened to train in the evening!


If your training so early then you do need to eat your low GI carbs the night before Pingu, its never worth sacrficing the intensity of your workout for small diatry manipuations, the fibre content of decent carb sources mean they need to be eaten over two hours before training by most people, if your trianing at 6am then its unlikely your going to get up at 3.30am to eat your first meal.

health4ni wrote:I think once you start training longer than an hour you need carbs during exercise. And 1.5hrs in the pool is tough going. I guess really it's about finding what works for you in the morning that has enough decent carbs and protein & fats, but that doesn't cause it to sit on the stomach.

The shake you recommended seemed to work OK today! I might have to have a little bit less as I was rather full, but it was much better!

Alex, Scott, Craig - thanks for those bits of advice. I'll look at adding in the low GI carbs this next couple of weeks and see what happens. I also appreciate it being so no nonsense and uncomplicated, I need that to understand and prevent panic! I will report back after the "experiment".

I think in general and simple terms for nutrient partitioning, medium GI carbs (root veg, rice, grains etc) should be restricted to use around (mostly before) periods of exhertion and exercise... but low GI carbs that are not too calorific (green leafy veg etc) can be taken at anytime.

High GI carbs and highly processed sugars would be better avoided as much as possible - certainly so if maintaining or improving body compostion is equally important to or more important than weight gain.

^^ in general (as you say) this is sensible. But for those wanting to get big and who are not too worried about adding maybe a bit more fat (not loads and no I don't mean the traditionally thought of "bulking" regimes), then high GI carbs are great. Mainly because they get digested quickly so you need to eat again... and indeed feel the need to eat again. After all, getting bigger requires lots of eating. This is what I'm currently doing at the mo. Must be working as a few people nt he past week have commented that I look bigger (luckily I'm not adding much fat either... wonder how long my body will allow me to do this! lol).

Det, this is what I was trying to work to but have found that I just don't have the energy I need for my morning training, even though I eat a lot of veg like broccoli and green beans at night. From what the guys here have said, and my own observations of energy levels during training, I am going to have to bite the bullet and have some medium GI sources (clean of course, like quinoa, beans, lentils etc) the night before my morning swim. I had some last night and did notice a difference this morning, but will know properly after a couple of weeks of a trial.

I'm starting to see that if you are training at night then not to have the carbs afterwards, but if there is intense training the next morning it could well be necessary for performance, as I am finding. I just hope that a couple of weeks of doing this and Scott's shake pre and post swim isn't going to make me balloon!

I can't offer anything but anecdotal evidence of course as my scientifc knowledge is weeeeeny compared to you guys!

I think you are right Pingu - evening carbs will be fine, and are probably just what you need to get your energy supplies topped up for the morning. It's not really that bigger deal anyway unless you are overeating on the carbs - it's only when all glycogen stores are full up and the body is at rest that you will start storing any more carbs as excess fat anyway.

Tricky getting that balance right though isn't it? Would be so much better if there was a formula we could follow! Body weight + this much training = this many carbs. I know there are "formulas" out there but there are so many variables to take into account. I'm just impatient, I want it all sorted out NOW!

health4ni wrote:^^ in general (as you say) this is sensible. But for those wanting to get big and who are not too worried about adding maybe a bit more fat (not loads and no I don't mean the traditionally thought of "bulking" regimes), then high GI carbs are great. Mainly because they get digested quickly so you need to eat again... and indeed feel the need to eat again. After all, getting bigger requires lots of eating. This is what I'm currently doing at the mo. Must be working as a few people nt he past week have commented that I look bigger (luckily I'm not adding much fat either... wonder how long my body will allow me to do this! lol).

What kind of carbs are you eating to try and get bigger?

On training days I have higher GI carbs. White rice for example is a good one. White potatoes too.

With your metabolism Scott its a good idea, even if you do put on some fat its much easier for you to lose fat than gain muscle and at such a low body fat level your body will be even more forgiving.

^^ yup, that's what I thought.

Seems like the weight is piling on! lol

I weighed myself on these electric scales that I believe weigh slightly heavy (plus I have clothes on) and the most until this morning was 73.2kg. This am (morning remember!) was 74.10kg! sweeeet. But I'll need to check when I go in later to make sure they weren't messing me about.

Regardless of the variables there Scott...nice! Good to see you getting a bit more beefy rather than freaky lean. Much better in my humble opinion, but that's just my preference!

lol who said anything about adding fat!

health4ni wrote:^^ in general (as you say) this is sensible. But for those wanting to get big and who are not too worried about adding maybe a bit more fat (not loads and no I don't mean the traditionally thought of "bulking" regimes), then high GI carbs are great. Mainly because they get digested quickly so you need to eat again... and indeed feel the need to eat again. After all, getting bigger requires lots of eating. This is what I'm currently doing at the mo. Must be working as a few people nt he past week have commented that I look bigger (luckily I'm not adding much fat either... wonder how long my body will allow me to do this! lol).

Yes, agree totally. I'm lucky personally to not have issues with moderate use of medium-higher GI carbs, seeming to have no digestive issues or fat gain problems... and find their inclusion vital when trying to gain lean and perform at my best. For me higher carbs just means more desire to be active and energy to train. I do realise others are not so fortunate though, hence my previous high GI carb cautious post!

Love those posts scott, really like the direction you're going in with your nutritional approaches lately

health4ni wrote:lol who said anything about adding fat!

Honestly. I said beefy not fat!! Maybe I didn't phrase it right.... I know what I meant!

Just a follow up and huge thanks to all who helped me with this one.

I'm now having some variation of a shake each morning, even on non training mornings, and this is working really well. It also means I get can coconut oil in because I really am not keen on the taste when on its own or used in cooking, so masked with other stuff its fine.

It took my stomach a little while to get used to the shake for swimming, but I perservered and its spot on. I also like this because I struggle for breakfast ideas given the fact eggs and I have a hate hate relationship so I can get everything I need and more. Spinach goes in every single one!

I am now having a small serving of quality carbs the night before a morning swim session and that has made a massive difference.

As far as body comp goes, body fat has dropped very slightly (am not even trying) and LBM has gone up slightly so its all good!

Thanks guys...its working! Wooo!