Hi guys, so I'm thinking of doing my first cycle later this year but I am very hesitant and have a lot of questions to ask!

I've been training for about 2 years solid now, and I am pretty sure I am near my natural max, i.e gains have tapered of even with different nutrition/training tactics. I have an extremely solid nutritional regime/understanding, and I never miss a workout.

I've tried to read as much as I can on the subject, pct and so on, but there are a few questions that I need some help with.

So from what I've read a basic test+dbol cycle would be a good start.

1. Now my main question is how much of the gains can I expect keep after the pct?

2. Would my "enhanced" gains dissapear when I went back to training normally while off the gear? Or is it an endless on/off cycle to keep/progress gains?

3. Does gear have long lasting effects on my natural testosterone production? i.e I don't want to be on HRT of any kind. Will my boys be working at 100% after the pct assuming it all goes to plan? Or does each cycle worsen your natural test producing abilities?

4. I hear people gain the most lbm on their first cycle, so would it not make sense to do a fairly hefty cycle? I realise people advise against this due to getting used to the experience/sides e.t.c - but realistically, if I knew what I was doing inside out, would it not make sense to go all out and make the most of my first cycle?

Thanks for the help in advance!

AD45

What are you stats....and what makes you think you have reached your potential would you say?

KP

5'11, 14.5 stone, 21 years old. It's not so much I've reached it, but I think I am in the process of reaching it. For the last year and a half I gained lbm pretty steadily, and then I noticed the gains tapering off. To combat this I tried upping my cals and routine, but to no avail - I seemed to be either gaining too much fat or nothing at all.

The reason I'm thinking about trying a cycle is that I'm starting to wonder whether taking the next year to do what I could in a the time of a cycle is really worth the effort - and I'm all about efficiency.

Agentdark45 wrote:5'11, 14.5 stone, 21 years old. It's not so much I've reached it, but I think I am in the process of reaching it. For the last year and a half I gained lbm pretty steadily, and then I noticed the gains tapering off. To combat this I tried upping my cals and routine, but to no avail - I seemed to be either gaining too much fat or nothing at all.

The reason I'm thinking about trying a cycle is that I'm starting to wonder whether taking the next year to do what I could in a the time of a cycle is really worth the effort - and I'm all about efficiency.

Thats always a decision that you need to take yourself mate [as you know]. There does get a point where the gains you once got, slows down alot. You can manipulate training, diet and all but the body will slow down to a degree.

In terms of size \ weights have you reached the set weights in your mind?...

For example, in my brain I had 4plates a side squat, 3 plates a side Bench etc when I first started training [I know its an idealistic approach but for me it worked as it allowed me to gauge how long it took to get there, and also evaluate what effort was required to get past there]

Have you tried changing the routine?....what is your BB \ Training Style?....

KP

Agentdark45 wrote:5'11, 14.5 stone, 21 years old. It's not so much I've reached it, but I think I am in the process of reaching it. For the last year and a half I gained lbm pretty steadily, and then I noticed the gains tapering off. To combat this I tried upping my cals and routine, but to no avail - I seemed to be either gaining too much fat or nothing at all.

The reason I'm thinking about trying a cycle is that I'm starting to wonder whether taking the next year to do what I could in a the time of a cycle is really worth the effort - and I'm all about efficiency.

I remember your reply to a post of mine on MP about gains made in twelve months and yours, from what I recall, were absolutely monstrous - incredible progress. Has it all slowed down then?

With regards to training, I tried a 5 days split instead of 3 - but this caused me to fatigue far too easily and did not increase size. My style is hard and heavy, utilising mostly compound lifts, but occasionally I like to do semi-high rep work but still use heavy ass weight lol.

Dtlv74 wrote:I remember your reply to a post of mine on MP about gains made in twelve months and yours, from what I recall, were absolutely monstrous - incredible progress. Has it all slowed down then?

Yeah it's like I've suddenly hit a wall. But anyway, I'd quite like to take it to the next level, bar the concerns I have.

There's no way you've hit your natural limit after 2 years mate.

New exercises, or exercise variations along with a different approach to training and increasing calories should see you on your way.

The choice is yours at the end of the day

Agentdark45 wrote:With regards to training, I tried a 5 days split instead of 3 - but this caused me to fatigue far too easily and did not increase size. My style is hard and heavy, utilising mostly compound lifts, but occasionally I like to do semi-high rep work but still use heavy ass weight lol.

Dtlv74 wrote:I remember your reply to a post of mine on MP about gains made in twelve months and yours, from what I recall, were absolutely monstrous - incredible progress. Has it all slowed down then?

Yeah it's like I've suddenly hit a wall.

Hmmn, to be honest at your age I'd usually say that it's prudent to wait and explore other training styles for a while first but since you made so much progress... what was it, 30-40lbs in 12 months? It's possible that you did max out... on the otherhand, after that kind of growth i think the body would inevitably plateau for a while. You may find after a while growth kicks back in again. Speaking for myself, growth always comes in spurts.

Is your call mate... if you 'go dark' though, research it well.

Agentdark45 wrote:Hi guys, so I'm thinking of doing my first cycle later this year but I am very hesitant and have a lot of questions to ask!

I've been training for about 2 years solid now, and I am pretty sure I am near my natural max, i.e gains have tapered of even with different nutrition/training tactics. I have an extremely solid nutritional regime/understanding, and I never miss a workout.

I've tried to read as much as I can on the subject, pct and so on, but there are a few questions that I need some help with.

So from what I've read a basic test+dbol cycle would be a good start.

1. Now my main question is how much of the gains can I expect keep after the pct?

2. Would my "enhanced" gains dissapear when I went back to training normally while off the gear? Or is it an endless on/off cycle to keep/progress gains?

3. Does gear have long lasting effects on my natural testosterone production? i.e I don't want to be on HRT of any kind. Will my boys be working at 100% after the pct assuming it all goes to plan? Or does each cycle worsen your natural test producing abilities?

4. I hear people gain the most lbm on their first cycle, so would it not make sense to do a fairly hefty cycle? I realise people advise against this due to getting used to the experience/sides e.t.c - but realistically, if I knew what I was doing inside out, would it not make sense to go all out and make the most of my first cycle?

Thanks for the help in advance!

1. 80-90% with a good PCT
2. Depends if your over your natural limit or not, if you go over it then yes.
3. It can do, it effects everyone differently but in the end with enough cycles then I would say yes.
4. No on the first cycle you will respond strongly to any gear so doing a cycle with multiple compounds will add more sides and not more gains. Go for test only.

Cool, some interesting stuff. So then, assuming the new lbm gained is under my natural limit I should hold onto it all going back to my normal routine? If so why do people rate it so important to reach your natural limit before taking gear?

I went from 10.5 stone to 15.5 stone in a year. But most of my gains came after early July of that year Dtlv74.

Agentdark45 wrote:Cool, some interesting stuff. So then, assuming the new lbm gained is under my natural limit I should hold onto it all going back to my normal routine? If so why do people rate it so important to reach your natural limit before taking gear?

Elitism

Lol, so there isn't actually any valid reason? Sounds good to me!

Agentdark45 wrote:Cool, some interesting stuff. So then, assuming the new lbm gained is under my natural limit I should hold onto it all going back to my normal routine? If so why do people rate it so important to reach your natural limit before taking gear?

No one gets to their limit as no one knows what it is and everyone is impatient.

However, if you've added a couple of stone in muscle and gains are slow and you are old enough and know the possible side, then there's worse things like smoking, being a cokehead etc., so why worry?

simon m wrote:

Agentdark45 wrote:Cool, some interesting stuff. So then, assuming the new lbm gained is under my natural limit I should hold onto it all going back to my normal routine? If so why do people rate it so important to reach your natural limit before taking gear?

No one gets to their limit as no one knows what it is and everyone is impatient.

However, if you've added a couple of stone in muscle and gains are slow and you are old enough and know the possible side, then there's worse things like smoking, being a cokehead etc., so why worry?

Nice one Simon, I'll get to researching and make sure I do this thing correct!

Agentdark45 wrote:Lol, so there isn't actually any valid reason? Sounds good to me!

Well many pro's have started at the age of 18 and are way bigger than most people would want to get, now sure they have freaky genetics but they did not get to their genetic potential by 18. I would say what is most important is that you know how to train, eat and are educated in your decision.

BUT Craig these people are genetically gifted mate...the same people Pro's have also had to take 7g+ of test to even get to the competiing level...the true freaks are genetically gifted in their response to Gear......hence why those at the top level dont need to take as much...a mere look at the NPC HW versus Olympia shows a massive difference but dig deeper on boards and trainers and you see that some at NCP level have to really take shed loads.....

Of course, noone knows...but in AD case if he has put on that size [and its a bloody lot from those pics as I remember him to be a skinny kid - no offence AD its more a compliment ] then he def got things going for him.......without doubt.......

KP

Interesting thread.

I would say give it another 3 month and see how you get on if you are unsure, but as Simon says, theres worse things you could be doing.

Wardie - What makes you think he hasn't reached his natural limit....there or there abouts anyway. It is quite possible i would say...with regard to overall size that is. obviusly it takes allot longer to mature and condition a good physique

Probably in terms of density and leaness/detail I would hazard that you're not near your limit but these are the aspects that come more slowly and are less immedeately obvious. You'll find that visible changes will happen more in jumps rather than a gradual process which until recently you've been more used to. You'll notice nothing for a month or 2 and suddenly you'll see a change.

Ultimately it depends on what your long term goal is; whether you're after more overall mass and size or whether you're pretty much happy with the size you're at and just want to add in the detail. If it's the latter then I'd stay natural for the time being. If it's more mass and size then it's time to read up and ask more questions

The main reason I normally whinge like a condescending old man at youngsters who are looking at ASS is because they usually aren't training or eating properly. Their gains are slow and they think that roids/test is the only way forward. The problem here of course is that ASS will only grant you any significant benefit if you are training and eating well anyway! For the lazy folk the risks outway the gains.

Judging by your past progress I'd say you've probably got things pretty right, so It's really just your call.

I doubt you have come to your natural limit with just 2 yrs worth of training under your belt, i dont know you and dont know your progression but my understand of what you have said up to now i dont think 2 yrs is enough to build the foundations to work from using AAS, saying that i would need more information regarding your history. But i would bet your diet is not in order to progress further past your sticking limit your at...

1, Gains can be maintained after cycle depending on how much over your genetic potential you have gone or how much muscle tissue your carrying, if the right protocols are implemented during pct and after your gains can be maintained, remember what build the muscle will keep the muscle, diet and intense training programme will keep the muscle there, its what happens while your trying to recover your own HPTA were many problems are or loss of tissue can be seen.

2, Again, depends on how much over your genetic potential you are trying to hold, in your case i doubt it very much your anywhere near your full potential so i feel you would hold and maintain all your solid muscle tissue gains if the right pct is carried out and diet and training are in order. You would lose water weight and maybe during pct if things are not spot on but again education is the key and research in this area.

3,Well here is a question, depends on the person, but i do feel strong about what i am going to say to you now, your to young to start AAS at 21 yrs old you have enough natural Test floating around to make decent gains, let me explain a little further....In humans your Endocrine system is not full functional until an average age of 25yrs, although the main development is up to around 21yrs it still fluctuates alittle bit up to its fully functional age. There is a risk of permanently damaging your HPTA if you take AAS to young and you could end up with syptoms of andropause and HRT for life would only be the answer to your problems. Limp dick,low libido,depression,low energy,low endurance,erections problems and many more but.......are these the types of symptoms you want to have in your 20's?. Believe me its hard to cope with these in your 40's yet alone in your prime of your life.

At this age your Testosterone levels are the highest they going to be in your life naturally, so use what you have and dont take the risk of damage, i am passionate about this because ive seen it many times all because some young kids wont listen and think his answer to looking like his heros is in an injection/tablet. thsink about the damage and trust me you can build at this age if the diet and training is in order.

Taking AAS to young can also cause problems with development, one other main problem is premature sealing of your epiphyeal bone and the consequences mean that you wont grow as big as your genetics could allow you to, there is a test which can be done to see if your growth plates have sealed yet but the average age is around 21yrs old.

Having said all that, what are your goals because if your planning on being a top pro and going places your going to have to start running the risk because all the rest of the amatures are...

4, You dont need to use heavy amounts of gear in your first cycle, remember what every you use is going to be heavy for your body anyway because its not use to having extra Test floating around so no tolerance as been built up, so using 300-500mgs per wk will be plenty for someone who hasnt used before, get my drift??

I think if you decide to go down that road then you should have a read at the Pre-cycle Priming thread by Marcus3000

MXD on here did this and has had fantastic results from his cycle

good post marcus!

Agreed excellent post marcus.

Just picking up on point 4. Is there any value to using natural test boosters prior to a cycle like trib, zma or cissusdrol?

Marks1972 wrote:Agreed excellent post marcus.

Just picking up on point 4. Is there any value to using natural test boosters prior to a cycle like trib, zma or cissusdrol?

Test boosters before a cycle?? cant see why you would do that prior to cycling testosterone, i can see why you would use booster in pct or after pct to maintain though but not before, no value what so ever in my eyes. remember when ever you use artificial Test your own system will shut dowm at some stage so boosting it beforehand wont aid the cycle, only aid muscle building before but if your a first time user i am guessing you have tried all the natural booster out there and the mega secret pills what are marketed so you will know what exactly natural test booster do to you.

I was wondering if raising natural test prior to a cycle would act as a kind of bridge and be less of a shock to the system.

I have to admit though, im still a bit sceptical of natural boosters, i take them as im in an age group where they are said to be useful, but im not sure they do me any more good than a good bit of red meat.