kp1512 wrote:

Cancers and heart disease generally occur in older people, so one has to be fit to die from these, therefoe you cannot have any meaningful statistics on such disease and causes of death if your general population pops it's clogs before the age of 40 as the Chinese did before 1950.

The question of sanitation is ofcourse important and no doubt this is improving as China improves it's infastrucutre but as the Country spends above 5% of it's GWP on healthcare and people are now living to over 70 on average, you cannot ignore the fact that inoculations, drugs etc., are the main reason for this increase as thousands of years of "chinese medicine" didn't keep the fuckers alive for long!

Simon

The stats you refer to are flawed as not even China had a count of there death rates and it was all indicative but clearly miles out; and the WHO, UN et al didnt even have access inside China. Additionaly - China has a very severe issue with the number of people over 60 now - ie there are too many. This also blows the notion that back then it was 35 or whatever.

Even if we take into account development a very significant part of china still lives in poverty and there life expectancy is well over 70 now if you refer to both UN, China and WHO stats.

This to me says that even with development and health care - the large % dont even recieve it - they are living well past western figures.

Who cares? There's too many of them anyway!

The point I wish to make is that modern medicine is more effective than Chinese Medicine and if you ever get cancer, trust me, you'll want good old proven western medicine to save you. I know this mate...

Chemo? mmm I wouldn't have it. But that's for another thread I guess.

simon m wrote:

kp1512 wrote:

The point I wish to make is that modern medicine is more effective than Chinese Medicine

I'd say definitely, for certain functions. I agree with you cancer example, but if you're talking digestive disturbance then allopathic medicine is often a complete waste of time; the 'diagnosis' of IBS (which is a bullshit catch-all term in place of a proper diagnosis) being one good example that springs to mind. Westernn/allopathic medicine focuses on the symptoms of a condition and not the cause- in some cases this is no big deal as they're essentially one and the same, but when it comes to digestion, skin problems, chronic fatigue, depression or a whole raft of other maladies then you have to take a more holistic view than most 'modern' doctors are inclined to contemplate.

Oggy wrote:What do you guys make of the yin-yang concept with foods? I find it really fascinating and also believe in it as I have too much yang energy (my acupuncturist told me) and yang foods make me feel worse while yin earthy foods such as raw veg, fruits n nuts n seeds make me feel earthed out and very chilled. I had stake meal today after my workout and all day at work I was hot headed and pissed off with everything. Meat is very yang, specially red meats like beef. My recovery was also hindered as I noticed more cracking painful joints and stiff muscles. Beef is probably not he best first meal after a workout but I did have an apple as my post workout recovery snack. Also felt bloated all day like my digestion was slower than normal. I think if I'm going to eat meat I'll do it not very often and only eat white meats and fish, these don't seem as bad for me.

Does everyone or anyone understand the yin-yang concept with foods and life on this board well?

^^^see above bit in bold

I cringe when people say that they seem to fele less recovery from X, Y or Z VERY particular reason

Could it not be from appx 100 multiple factors/reasons that your recovery may have been lesser? Pinning such a thing down to having eaten red meat after training is a great example of jumping to a daft conclusion and psudo science

Edit:

Rob is correct. The energy flow stuff doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny at the moment. Anyone that says this is fact, rather than "this may be a possibility and it need a lot more investigation"...is putting [b/]FAITH[/b] into an idea/philosophy. This hinders progress and leaves the individual stuck in the dark ages.

^^^Rab

Sometimes it does not make economical sense to pursue and prove something

Here is a prime example

"(NaturalNews) A new study conducted at the University of Kentucky in the United States, and published in the journal Clinical Cancer Research, found that leukemia cancer cells exposed to grapeseed extract (GSE) were rapidly killed through a process of cell suicide known as "apoptosis."

In these laboratory studies, an astonishing 76% of leukemia cells committed suicide within 24 hours thanks to the ability of GSE to activate a protein called JNK, which regulates apoptosis."

Now have a guess what is happening now? Rather then use this- they are examining the pathways that GSE use and are going to make a medicine which copies it

Now have a guess WHY they do this without just purifying an extract and using that?

Just to recap Rab - 76% of cells died WITHIN 24 hours. And yet we have people going through Chemo which is probably the worse form of treatment known to mankind - for weeks on end. Have I missed something?

Dont want to take this down the conspiracy route as simply the above has been PROVEN - but you see what happens in the wider world. I can refer to DIM, Pomegranite, and numerous other purified extracts which have prove to kill HUMAN CANCER CELLS - yet rather than use that the big pharms copy there actions and patent it.

You can't patent a purely natural ingredient (like GSE) and so you cannot make money from it. Hence all the fecking drugs pushed onto us by the medical profession, when very many (lesser) ailments can be resolved/revered with great nutrition and natural foods.

Totally understand that that is the case sometimes...there are better options and the money isnt spend on the research as Stated by Scott. How far this goes i dont know.

I do stand by what i said with regards to the likes of the ying yang energy and the same with the likes of Reki (sp?) and other such things

It's very difficult for us to understand/believe in such things that cannot be proven the scientific way.

I keep an open mind and believe there is definitely something in things like Alternative Complimentary Medicines. How far they go is sometimes up to how far the individual wants to believe in it. Although I still think some thing work. Finding the balance for your own needs/desires is what matters.

The cancer debate is certainly a topic that provides some passionate responses. I can see both sides of the coin.

I support the premise of western medicine which allows, for example, the removal of cancers, e.g. my flatmate would have died if they were not able to remove his thyroid and attached cancer. Modern medicine means he will be on medication for the rest of his life, but, he WILL have a life.

Yet, I do not think Chemo is a suitable treatment for some cancers. In the end there are choices to be made. Different people chose different paths, but, mental attitude plays a huge role. Treating someone like a victim at death's door can have serious consequence, as can something as simple as making a patient wear one of those backless hospital gowns.

I think there are merits to both systems. I would just say to be wary of asian medicines as there is no, or very little regulation, random analysis of products can reveal all sorts of interesting things included in them. In such instances it is amazing what the placebo effect can achieve.

Let's keep this debate polite. I'm interested in everyone's opinion.

Though...with my recent experiences I have to say I am damn glad we have modern methods.

Oh yes, back on topic please....says she who continued the derail!

RoB wrote:Schizophrenia can be observed though, MRI scans can show the fundamental differences in brain function of a schizophrenic. Depression can be observed as a characteristic even if the cause is currently unknown.

Yes but that's a biological problem of the brain, (which can be cured IMPO, but that's another subject). Psychotic problems can not be cured through western science while in Chinese medicine there is no such thing as an incurable disease.

Have a laugh at this, Psychiatry EXPOSED! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b30iwhEw9ho

I've personally suffered from paranoid psychosis and they put me on "profit making" medication that DID NOT cure my illness, so after 3 moths I went cold turkey and looked into the Chinese concept and within months I feel fantastic.... huh how could this be? Your brain washed in the west to believe popping a pill is the cure to EVERYTHING!

RoB wrote:The laws of physics can be theorized and proven and undergo the rigour of scientific scrutiny. Is there a unifying law of Chi and Qi ? name one example in which these energies have been objectively observed? I'm not trying to belittle your beliefs but that is what they seem to be 'beliefs' and not science as I understand the definition.

Bla bla bla... lol "Theorized" and proven, sounds like pseudoscience to me. Chi IS the law of the universe, how can it have a law?

RoB wrote:Come on, you can't honestly believe the Chinese 2000 years ago would be able to stand up against western medicine when it comes to things like surgery. Major heart surgery without transfusions? transplants? removal of tumours. I see we are no doubt going to have to agree to disagree though.

Yes, I do believe it. Alternative Medicine: Acupuncture Pt 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92bUqWsjX5w At the end the woman has open heart surgery with acupuncture. Watch all parts its very interesting.

Here's the shortened version of the girl having open heart surgery with acupuncture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-dWMpuYnwQ

So Oggy you've found your own personal belief system, it doesn't mean it runs true for the rest of us, so whilst I respect your right to your opinions, Rob has an equal right to his.

What will say is that Chinese medicine will not cure all ills, nor will western or any other medicines. Some illnesses cannot be cured and they kill us.

It's shit but that's life. So just enjoy what you can and try not to get too stressed, as stress imo, is the thing that runs us down and makes us susceptible to most ills.

Oggy wrote:

RoB wrote:Schizophrenia can be observed though, MRI scans can show the fundamental differences in brain function of a schizophrenic. Depression can be observed as a characteristic even if the cause is currently unknown.

Yes but that's a biological problem of the brain, (which can be cured IMPO, but that's another subject). Psychotic problems can not be cured through western science while in Chinese medicine there is no such thing as an incurable disease.

Have a laugh at this, Psychiatry EXPOSED! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b30iwhEw9ho

I've personally suffered from paranoid psychosis and they put me on "profit making" medication that DID NOT cure my illness, so after 3 moths I went cold turkey and looked into the Chinese concept and within months I feel fantastic.... huh how could this be? Your brain washed in the west to believe popping a pill is the cure to EVERYTHING!

RoB wrote:The laws of physics can be theorized and proven and undergo the rigour of scientific scrutiny. Is there a unifying law of Chi and Qi ? name one example in which these energies have been objectively observed? I'm not trying to belittle your beliefs but that is what they seem to be 'beliefs' and not science as I understand the definition.

Bla bla bla... lol "Theorized" and proven, sounds like pseudoscience to me. Chi IS the law of the universe, how can it have a law?

RoB wrote:Come on, you can't honestly believe the Chinese 2000 years ago would be able to stand up against western medicine when it comes to things like surgery. Major heart surgery without transfusions? transplants? removal of tumours. I see we are no doubt going to have to agree to disagree though.

Yes, I do believe it. Alternative Medicine: Acupuncture Pt 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92bUqWsjX5w At the end the woman has open heart surgery with acupuncture. Watch all parts its very interesting.

Here's the shortened version of the girl having open heart surgery with acupuncture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-dWMpuYnwQ

Oggy

I totally apreciate the stuff you say and also believe in some of the stuff.

I think the key for me in seeing things from a non-western perspective ie going to other countries and seeing how and what people do. It would be boring to list the ointments that tribes use in extremely remote parts of the world where they have no such thing as heart diseases and cancer and all and it can be put down to there diets and not being exposed to western traits.

I think sometimes we in the western world have closed mind thinking largely influenced by things we get told - as opposed to thinking for ourselves.

In this respect - youve obviously done something about it and found something that works

However - how much of this is in your mind? How much of what you have done is placebo? [im asking this honestly and not trying to be a tit- although I can do that very well naturally ]

Your post of the heat and things is exactly what people beleive in my culture - so I did kind of find it interesting when you mentioned that as Ive never seen anyone outside of my culture mention this. My mother always use to say the same to me when I was younger that eating meat makes you angry and is warm for the body. I never did realise what this meant and always used to rubbish it away - but now Ive got an open mind to these things.

kp1512 wrote:Your post of the heat and things is exactly what people beleive in my culture

But you eat beef you 'tard

cleaver wrote:

kp1512 wrote:Your post of the heat and things is exactly what people beleive in my culture

But you eat beef you 'tard

I didnt say I beleived it also.

Oggy wrote:What do you guys make of the yin-yang concept with foods? I find it really fascinating and also believe in it as I have too much yang energy (my acupuncturist told me) and yang foods make me feel worse while yin earthy foods such as raw veg, fruits n nuts n seeds make me feel earthed out and very chilled. I had stake meal today after my workout and all day at work I was hot headed and pissed off with everything. Meat is very yang, specially red meats like beef. My recovery was also hindered as I noticed more cracking painful joints and stiff muscles. Beef is probably not he best first meal after a workout but I did have an apple as my post workout recovery snack. Also felt bloated all day like my digestion was slower than normal. I think if I'm going to eat meat I'll do it not very often and only eat white meats and fish, these don't seem as bad for me.

Does everyone or anyone understand the yin-yang concept with foods and life on this board well?

Is an interesting way to approach things. I certainly think that if you look at how people eat generally you can relate it to the yin yang food principals if you wanted to think of it that way - yin foods being cooling, relaxing, of subtle flavour, often watery and generally not so calorific but nutritent dense - yang foods being spicy, strong flavoured, stimulating and calorie dense... most people who overeat and are a bit tubby I'd say were eating mostly yang and not enough yin, while as the undereating skinny folk are more yin! The general principal of good health being to eat both but with a bias towards that which your body needs to make balance.

As for western science versus oriental medicine well why not look to both? Western science is very direct and practical but also invasive and often focused on symptomatic relief rather than cure. Oriental approaches however are more general in the sense that they are about using the whole systems of the body and are far less invasive. Looking at it this way you could say that a blend of the two makes a good yin yang balance...

^^ stop coming out with such good posts Det

health4ni wrote:^^ stop coming out with such good posts Det

lol, is only because my yin and yang are balanced, my qi is flowing and i'm at one with the tao!

hhhhuuuuummmmm

kp1512 wrote:Oggy

I totally apreciate the stuff you say and also believe in some of the stuff.

However - how much of this is in your mind? How much of what you have done is placebo? [im asking this honestly and not trying to be a tit- although I can do that very well naturally ]

Thank you. I've not been on the net much lately so sorry for the late reply.

The placebo effect is very strong, I mean my psychosis was all in my mind wasn't it so why can't I reverse this with using my mind with eastern philosophies? Its worked wonders for me. My psychosis was being mainly controlled by fear and this simple but true philosophy let me understand that fear is not a bad thing.

The Buddha drinks the vinegar screws his face up and says it tastes bad, Confucius tastes the vinegar and says its bitter, Lao Tzu tastes the vinegar and says it tastes like vinegar with a smile on his face, so its neither good nor bad.

This way of thinking helped stop the eternal (that's internal in me) war between Good and Evil. Its very simple but an effective way of changing your thought pattern.

The acupuncture was great also, I can actually feel the energy rushing through my body and it gives me a great body buzz then a really nice relaxing sleep after. Also your arms and legs twitch about, my acupuncturist says its like a hose unblocking and Chi energy free flowing again.

The mind is very powerful according to this new quantum biology, looks like the ancients weren't quacks after all!

Bruce Lipton - The New Biology - Where Mind and Matter Meet http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...bg4vXGBA&hl=en

By Bruce Lipton Recent advances in cellular science are heralding an important evolutionary turning point. For almost fifty years we have held the illusion that our health and fate were preprogrammed in our genes, a concept referred to as genetic determinacy. Though mass consciousness is currently imbued with the belief that the character of one's life is genetically predetermined, a radically new understanding is unfolding at the leading edge of science. Cellular biologists now recognize that the environment, the external universe and our internal physiology, and more importantly, our perception of the environment, directly controls the activity of our genes. This video will broadly review the molecular mechanisms by which environmental awareness interfaces genetic regulation and guides organismal evolution.