How do you rate

Front Raises [with dumbell going across the opposite side for maximum front delt stimulation]

Side Laterals

Upright Rows

Shoulder Press [Dumbell or Barbell]

I was thinking of adding the following as a variation

Front Raises, Side Laterals, Upright Rows

Dumbell Presses, Upright Rows, Cheat Laterals

For a pulling movement I think Upright Rows are the daddy, much better than the DB varieties due to the sheer weight they allow you to use. Not for everyone and you need to take a little extra care but they're so worth it imho.

Don't think I've ever done front raises in my life. Front delts get hit hard from chest work so you need to be economical with front shoulder work and go for real bang for buck exercises.... Front raises are not what springs to mind.

Have you tried seated Arnold Press? Well worth a look if not. HC2PP??

Front Raises [with dumbell going across the opposite side for maximum front delt stimulation]
Pointless as Front Delts get plenty of stimulation from Shoulder Press & Chest Press variations and Dips.

Side Laterals
Only way to build good width IMO.

Upright Rows
Personally I think you'd build better Traps/Upper Back with Hang Cleans. Also hits Front Delts and Side Delts which would be covered Laterals and Press.

Shoulder Press [Dumbell or Barbell]
Best overall mass builder.

I'd add in a Rear Delt variation and go with a Front, Side, Rear routine and rotate the exercises about and the order.

Ive only started reevaluating my opinion on front raises of late after some reading and stuff

Front Raises are way better when you cross the centre. What I mean is that generally people do them like this



The above IMHO is only half the movement - do the following test

Put your front arm out and with the opposite hand place it on the delt. Now move your arm in a up and down fashion. Feel the front delt?

Now, do the same thing BUT dont have the arm straight out move it across so its basically in line with the opposite side of your body. Now do you feel the difference in the front delt contraction? You will find that the full front delt will contract more and be larger as it calls upon the sides of the front delt.

Do you do dumbell upright rows or barbell? Again - I find the key is leading with the elbows. I used to not do this properly I reckon

Alex wrote:Front Raises [with dumbell going across the opposite side for maximum front delt stimulation]
Pointless as Front Delts get plenty of stimulation from Shoulder Press & Chest Press variations and Dips.

Side Laterals
Only way to build good width IMO.

Upright Rows
Personally I think you'd build better Traps/Upper Back with Hang Cleans. Also hits Front Delts and Side Delts which would be covered Laterals and Press.

Shoulder Press [Dumbell or Barbell]
Best overall mass builder.

I'd add in a Rear Delt variation and go with a Front, Side, Rear routine and rotate the exercises about and the order.

But with upright rows - if you take a grip outside of shoulder wide it forces the side delts to come into play pretty strongly. Closer and yep - they hit the traps and make it a little bit of a shite movement.

Id only use front raises for some form of pre-exhaust I reckon and especiallu if I wasnt doing a press first.

Ok so with Upright Rows if you're trying to hit Side Delts more then why not just do Side Raises and be done with it rather than risk an injury to elbow, wrist, shoulder or anything else? Seems pointless to use another movement to try and target a muscle group when there's a perfectly good one already available.

I don't Upright Row, only Hang Clean, but I used to go pretty narrow with a Barbell rather than use DB's back when I did.

I used to cross Front Raises whenever I did them and in all honesty it made little difference in terms of muscle building whether I did them or not so I chose to put my energy to better use.

I use an EZ-Bar for Upright Rows as that's what is the most comfortable, I grip about shoulder width and they smash my side delts. I going to disagree with Mr.Temper here and say they're the best for building shoulder width, at least in my experience.

For the same reason I'm not a fan of the front raise. I'd always choose the exercise that will allow the most weight. So presses will build more mass than DB Raises...? Upright Rows much more weight than Side Laterals? Hang Cleans more weight than Upright Rows - but then I don't rate uprights for trap development anyway.

For overall shoulder HC2PP is a monster, again because of the amount of weight.

Agree with Alex, include rear raises.

Bison wrote:I use an EZ-Bar for Upright Rows as that's what is the most comfortable, I grip about shoulder width and they smash my side delts. I going to disagree with Mr.Temper here and say they're the best for building shoulder width, at least in my experience.

For the same reason I'm not a fan of the front raise. I'd always choose the exercise that will allow the most weight. So presses will build more mass than DB Raises...? Upright Rows much more weight than Side Laterals? Hang Cleans more weight than Upright Rows - but then I don't rate uprights for trap development anyway.

For overall shoulder HC2PP is a monster, again because of the amount of weight.

Agree with Alex, include rear raises.

I see where you're coming from but for Shoulders isolating each head is important hence why I feel Side Laterals will work better due to the isolation which Upright Rows don't offer.

Of course it's personal preferance so no real right or wrong answer.

Alex wrote:I see where you're coming from but for Shoulders isolating each head is important hence why I feel Side Laterals will work better due to the isolation which Upright Rows don't offer.

Of course it's personal preferance so no real right or wrong answer.

Definately, I think the best is to try them all and alternate tbh. I mean I'm argueing a point but currently using DB Side Lats in my routine lol!

Uprights aren't for everyone but if you click with them they're immense for building mass

Anyway what do you know about building muscle eh??

Interesting.

Id agree with the side lateral versus upright rows to a degree as when i tried them with dumbells but at the side I did find the following morning that my sides were a little fried - whereas weeks before I was doing them closer.

Ill look at HC2PP as well

I think i may even up with with 3 variations of a shoulder workout which would be good!

Did you mean these?

HC2PP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbO7LVse ... re=related

What do you find they hit more - or is it just an overall shoulder movement

I rarely perform shoulders on their own,maybe only once a month,and the workout normally just consists of DB press and side lateral raises.

I believe chest and back workouts provide enough stimulus to the rest,and(especially in my case)performing only one "push" routine/week dramatically reduces the risk of injury.

kp1512 wrote:Did you mean these?

HC2PP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbO7LVse ... re=related

What do you find they hit more - or is it just an overall shoulder movement

Well basically yes but... that guy's form is terrible lol

More like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEkvekUY ... re=related

I clean like he does on the first effort and then push press like he does. I just don't do the 2nd clean were he squats down.

Alex wrote:Front Raises [with dumbell going across the opposite side for maximum front delt stimulation]
Pointless as Front Delts get plenty of stimulation from Shoulder Press & Chest Press variations and Dips.

Side Laterals
Only way to build good width IMO.

Upright Rows
Personally I think you'd build better Traps/Upper Back with Hang Cleans. Also hits Front Delts and Side Delts which would be covered Laterals and Press.

Shoulder Press [Dumbell or Barbell]
Best overall mass builder.

I'd add in a Rear Delt variation and go with a Front, Side, Rear routine and rotate the exercises about and the order.

+1

Also, upright rows with a BB feck your wrists up. I've found that using a rope on the cable machine far better on the wrists.

right so

- elbows under to shoulder level - slight pause

- push up lower down to shoulder, then drop to waist level

repeat

correct?

..also - what are the target muscle for Hang Cleans? Entire shoulder and traps?

Yeah keep elbows low, the actual movement of the shoulders is very similar to DB laterals... you can just use a hell of a lot more weight.

Cleans are a compound exercise, they hit the whole shoulder area but especially the traps.

Hmm i think im going to utilise both - HC2PP and Hang Cleans not together obv but EOWO.

Rest ill start doing Dumbell Shoulder Presses - but Im really peed as I have noone availble to hand them up if you want to go for a week or two all out.

Can't you do them seated, rest DB's on knee's and then use legs to flick them up? How heavy are you talking??

Bison wrote:Can't you do them seated, rest DB's on knee's and then use legs to flick them up? How heavy are you talking??

I dont know. Ill try them tomorrow.

Yep might do the flick stuff - do that on the Flyes right now.

I find swinging them up in a sort-of-clean to work better, get more speed than from flicking with knees.
Does put a bit of strain on your wrists getting them to stop though, can't stop the bar on your chest like with a barbell.