Right, I've been cutting since mid May or thereabouts. Recently started HIT and been advised that HIT on no carbs = fail.
So how do I go about reintroducing carbs without turning into the Incredible Blob?

Go with low impact stuff like brown basmati rice and quinoa, maybe small amounts of oats and eat these earlier in the day. Later in the day stick to non starchy vegatables - greens are the obvious choice. Key is to add in small amounts at a time but I would initially start out as you are and see how it goes first before deciding that it'll equal fail.

To echo what Alex said, why not forget what everybody says and just hit it hard?
For me there's no real difference between carbs and no carbs - I just tear up the weights, no excuses.

Ro carb it.

Max wrote:Ro carb it.

^ This.

Training in the morning is ideal as it means you can get carbs in around your workouts and consume the majority first thing.

Quinoa and brown rice are excellent, citrus fruits are good before you train (especially grapefruit) and if you fancy something sweet, PWO is the time to have it.

Probably nothing there you didn't already know but those are the golden rules IMO

I dont see why HIT + low carbs = fail. Your body repletes glycogen without carbs anyway. If anything no carbs + HIT = AMPk upregulation = WIN for fat loss.

Maybe on paper but have you tried it? I felt like absolute dogshit...

are we talking about HIT or HIIT here?

HIT as in weights, not HIIT as in cardio.

I've been fine with it so far, but as it's been recommended I reintroduce them I should at least think about it. Besides I can't continue on this low/no carb melarky for ever.

Post workout carbs just make no sense at all, I do wonder how many people have sat down and looked at whats going on hormonaly (is that a word). Catecholamines released by training with weights lowers the body response to insulin plus its been shown an age ago that a pre workout insulin boost is twice as effective as a PWO shake.

I have to admit getting my pre workout nutrition right is something I'm learning and I'm NOT talking about the meal before my workout or a few aminos before! But I have been aware for a long time that PWO shakes where a load of poo.


As for you general eating GB, keep it simple, eat paleo style plus dairy on non workout days and eat clean carb sources plus an insulin spike before workouts. With the addition of morning carbs when you feel a bit down.

Craig wrote:Post workout carbs just make no sense at all, I do wonder how many people have sat down and looked at whats going on hormonaly (is that a word). Catecholamines released by training with weights lowers the body response to insulin plus its been shown an age ago that a pre workout insulin boost is twice as effective as a PWO shake.

I have to admit getting my pre workout nutrition right is something I'm learning and I'm NOT talking about the meal before my workout or a few aminos before! But I have been aware for a long time that PWO shakes where a load of poo.


As for you general eating GB, keep it simple, eat paleo style plus dairy on non workout days and eat clean carb sources plus an insulin spike before workouts. With the addition of morning carbs when you feel a bit down.

Very interesting Craig,i currently go with a protein/glutamine shake PWO followed by a solid(carbs and protein) meal about an hour later.Is that similar to the above thinking?

Do you use a shake pre workout?

Hormonally -
A substance, usually a peptide or steroid, produced by one tissue and conveyed by the bloodstream to another to effect physiological activity, such as growth or metabolism.
A synthetic compound that acts like a hormone in the body.
Any of various similar substances found in plants and insects that regulate development

My take on carbs post workout is that their usefulness depends a lot on how you train. If training at low intensity, below 50% VO2 max, then you will hardly touch glycogen stores and burn mostly just intramuscular fat. Training between 50% and 75% will put you into carb depleting mode but it will still take a while - around 90 mins of training for significant depletion to occur. Above 75% VO2 max however you will deplete liver glycogen very rapidly - you can deplete your liver and local muscle stores (specific stores of those muscle trained) of glycogen significantly (upto 80% of liver glycogen and 60% of local muscle stores) within only 20-40 mins at this intensity.

Now the levels of glycogen in the liver are so important because once a training session has reduced them and so long as they remain low a) you will feel tired and exhausted and b) the muscular repair process will not be so efficient (because the low liver glycogen levels make the body think it is starving and so it looks to hold energy stores rather than build new tissue).

All of the above leads to the idea that low intensity sessions that dont raise average % VO2 max very high don't require any immediate post workout carbs - you wont be tired enough to suffer low glycogen effects. If training at higher intensity then it may be a good idea.

Another reason possibly to use post workout carbs is if performing multiple daily sessions of moderate intensity... this could reduce liver glycogen to very low levels over a few days if diet is low carb and result in massive increases in the stress hormones Craig mentions and increases the risk of overtraining symptoms.

Normal glycogen repletion, even without heavy use of carbs, will take place in 24-30 hours of eating and rest (or low activity) anyway so no need to take specifically post workout for this - although the body is primed to take up carbs at a faster rate during this time due to GLUT4 transporters moving to the edge of the muscle cell membranes and it won't do any harm, and can make you feel more energised more quickly.

People often argue against post workout carbs on the basis of increased HGH and testosterone that occurs if you take nothing at all post workout. Cortisol is also increased at this time but they say thats ok because it regulates tissue repair - it removes the damaged proteins from exercise to allow healthier muscle to be rebuilt. This last argument is a case of taking 2+2 and getting 5.

Cortisol post exercise is purely about raising blood sugar, it has nothing to do with clearing out damaged muscle proteins. This job is taken care of simply by eating high levels of protein throught the day. More protein in diet = greater protein turnover and healthier muscle cells. It really is as simple as that.

The post exercise cortisol response is undesireable because it affects the whole body and all of your skeletal muscles not just those that you train within a particular session - ie, if you bust your butt on a leg session but dont train upper body directly, the post workout cortisol will break down muscle tissue from your upper body as much as your lower. By doing nothing about this you are always partly undoing your own gains every session.

AS for increased HGH and testosterone post workout, yes they are supressed after the session if you consume carbs, fat or protein... but the reason they are there in the first place is to counteract a temporary state of malnutrition! The balance of hormones post training (if no food is eaten) is very similar to the chronic hormone levels those who are malnourished. In this particular state its all about the body sensing that its tissues are being broken down for energy and a desperate attempt to hold onto that tissue by changing its hormonal environment to do this.

Putting this altogether I'd say carbs at this time are not such an enemy unless you are looking specifically to cut/burn bodyfat, in which case avoid them. They can help energy levels when taken around the workout and spare muscle tissue - but protein wil spare muscle tissue too. Protein is actually far more important to take around the workout, and best taken PRE (or PRE, PERI and PWO) rather than PWO... but that's another topic

Your missing the point dtlv, if you take the carbs pre workout and achieve an insulin spike pre workout then you will not get the cortisol response in the first place. Whats the point in shutting the barn door when the horse has already bolted? Why not try to raise insulin when the bodys hormones are set up to allow you to. As you've taken your carbs pre workout most points you mention become void as the body runs off the carbs you taken.

@ Para, basically take your post workout shake and take it before hand, its better to use WPH or EAA's along with the high GI carb due to both digestion and the rate at which the amino's in the blood raise. A sharp rise in blood amino levels has its own unique anabolic qualities. The timing is key here, your hormone response to training with heavy weights stops the blood sugar crash if you take it no longer than 25min pre training with the optimum being roughly 15 before your first heavy set .

Craig wrote:Your missing the point dtlv, if you take the carbs pre workout and achieve an insulin spike pre workout then you will not get the cortisol response in the first place. Whats the point in shutting the barn door when the horse has already bolted? Why not try to raise insulin when the bodys hormones are set up to allow you to. As you've taken your carbs pre workout most points you mention become void as the body runs off the carbs you taken.

@ Para, basically take your post workout shake and take it before hand, its better to use WPH or EAA's along with the high GI carb due to both digestion and the rate at which the amino's in the blood raise. A sharp rise in blood amino levels has its own unique anabolic qualities. The timing is key here, your hormone response to training with heavy weights stops the blood sugar crash if you take it no longer than 25min pre training with the optimum being roughly 15 before your first heavy set .

lol, no i agree with you - pre workout carbs and more importantly pre workout EAAs are more important than post for protein synthesis, suppression of cortisol... and they even ensure enough pyruvate to maximise fat burning via the krebs cycle. I was talking more about glycogen repletion. Covering everything that happens hormonally around the training session and how that inter-relates to different training protocols is a vast subject... hard to cover all of it in a single post.

My workout protocol varies acording to my routine but generally at the moment it's this for medium frequency training and moderate volume but intense workouts;

PRE 20 mins - 300ml water, 12g Dex/malto blend, 5g EAAs, 5g BCAAs, 2g Creatine mono, 400ui vit E, 1000mg vit C
PERI - 300ml water, 5g EAAs, 5g BCAAs, 5g glutamine, 1g electrolyte salts
POST - 30g Whey + casien, 500ml skimmed milk

Although my knowledge is extremely elementary compared to you both I have to, on a pure, way I feel basis, have to agree with Craig. When I dropped post workout carbs I didn't suffer any bad effects. When pre workout carbs were cut it was considerably harder to train until I adjusted.

I am definitely more of the opinion now that I should have my carbs around training.

Would love to follow a supp regime like that Det, but alas, money.....

GymBunny wrote:Although my knowledge is extremely elementary compared to you both I have to, on a pure, way I feel basis, have to agree with Craig. When I dropped post workout carbs I didn't suffer any bad effects. When pre workout carbs were cut it was considerably harder to train until I adjusted.

I am definitely more of the opinion now that I should have my carbs around training.

Would love to follow a supp regime like that Det, but alas, money.....

Lol, those are the only supp's i'm taking apart from some fish oil... and when supplies of those run out god knows what! At the moment i have £25 a week to cover all food and supps...

Just to make it clear i agree with both you and Craig - the PRE carbs and protein ARE the most important ones. My point primarily is that if training both regularly and in a glycogen depleting fashion carbs POST are also beneficial.

If you have plenty of free time you should speak to Cat about how to make money off ebay, she used to make a fair bit reselling what I can best describe as bits of collectable crap, picked up from charity shops and car boots for pennies, you could easily double your budget it just takes a little free time.

........... and I'm logged in as her

Craig wrote:@ Para, basically take your post workout shake and take it before hand, its better to use WPH or EAA's along with the high GI carb due to both digestion and the rate at which the amino's in the blood raise. A sharp rise in blood amino levels has its own unique anabolic qualities. The timing is key here, your hormone response to training with heavy weights stops the blood sugar crash if you take it no longer than 25min pre training with the optimum being roughly 15 before your first heavy set .

Much appreciated info Craig