Really dumb noob deadlift question...

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Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby upright on Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:58 am

Added regular deads in about 2 months ago, and have had relatively good success with progression, PBs every week etc. But was talking to a guy I work with the other day sho trains for strongman and he said he puts the bar to the floor on very rep - which I do not. He reckoned that by not going full to the floor you were missing the hardest part of the lift. I generally go to within a few mm of floor, believing the point was not to go to floor, that would be like racking a bar mid bech set surely... However, the back is delicate, so it got me thinking maybe it was more logical to touch floor on deads although, i do not struggle with any injuries but thought I better ask this dumb question before I do...
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Shicky on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:03 pm

I put it to the floor on every rep, I believe this is generally seen as the only way to do it. Afraid I dont have any info to back up my claims, I read it in one of Mark Rippetoe's books, you could probably find it on a crossfit video but him or something.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Marks1972 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:05 pm

Personally i feel you shouldnt just touch down with the weight each rep, you should let go, and reset your starting position.

If you dont ground the weight, at best its going to turn into an RDL/SDL.. at worst your back isnt going to thank you.

Ive found since i reset each time heavy deadlifting my lower back is much happier.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby upright on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:07 pm

Shicky wrote:I put it to the floor on every rep, I believe this is generally seen as the only way to do it. Afraid I dont have any info to back up my claims, I read it in one of Mark Rippetoe's books, you could probably find it on a crossfit video but him or something.


Thinking about it, that would be logical from a safety angle, I don't tend to hang about at the bottom going for time under tension, but neither do I yank at the bar. Don't think going to the floor will make it any harder, I'll probably get better progress now... Cheers fella :D
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby upright on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:09 pm

Marks1972 wrote:Personally i feel you shouldnt just touch down with the weight each rep, you should let go, and reset your starting position.

If you dont ground the weight, at best its going to turn into an RDL/SDL.. at worst your back isnt going to thank you.

Ive found since i reset each time heavy deadlifting my lower back is much happier.


So you're saying completely start again each rep? hmm - I'll give that a go. Again, makes sense, cheers.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Marks1972 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:13 pm

I think so mate, not just for safety but the power in the lift comes from your initial leg drive, which youre taking away if you dont ground the weight and get your butt nice and low again.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby health4ni on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:13 pm

keep it a few cms/mms above the floor or have it touch the floor GENTLY is what I believe.

Poliquin wrote:Pausing is more important on extensor chain exercises such as presses, deadlifts and squats

Due to the effects of the force curve, I have found that pausing is more beneficial for strength building adaptations in squats and presses than in chin-ups or curls. Pausing in the bottom position is great to train the ability to overcome inertia, such as an offensive tackle would need - particularly the offensive line from the Patriots who failed to protect Tom Brady during the last Super Bowl!

One of the most common questions I'm asked is whether to pause the bar at the bottom or to bounce the bar between reps during power cleans or power snatches. Those athletes who like the bouncing approach, using the elastic quality inherent in bumper plates to gain momentum from the bottom, usually do so to compensate for a weak lower back. It is also extremely stressful on the spinal column - every single athlete I've seen who used this approach always turned out to have a lower back that limited their performance.

I prefer pausing at the start position because it more effectively overloads the posterior chain. It also more effectively recruits the higher-threshold motor units, which leads to better strength gains in terms of rate and magnitude. It also develops the ability to overcome inertia, which is a vital skill in most sports.

Even though the bouncing approach allows you to use more weight, pausing between reps provides a better-quality strength and power stimulus because it forces you to overcome inertia on every rep. Increasing strength and power in that range is what has the most carryover to improving power for the first two steps of any expression of sprinting speed, whether it be for soccer, rugby or bobsleigh.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Marks1972 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:15 pm

Actually what form of deadlift are we talking about? It sounds like Shicky and myself are both assuming we're talking conventional PL deadlift.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby health4ni on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:19 pm

lol good point.

The traditional Deadlift variations I'm talking about. Not RDLs for example.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Wardie on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:23 pm

Deadlift

;)

If you don't want to put the bar down, do proper romanian deadlifts instead.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby health4ni on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:33 pm

Chin-up

If you don't want to use your chin, then do a pull-ups instead.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Wardie on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:39 pm

That's irrelevant.

I don't know many (infact I don't know any) powerlifters who deadlift and don't put the weight on the floor after each rep, infact they all basically drop the weight onto the floor and start again. I find lowering the weight when doing a conventional deadlift to be awkward, possibly due to flexibility issues I don't know. I much prefer setting it down quickly and then pulling again.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby SCOTT GALTON on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:42 pm

IM A BODYBUILDER so i touch the weight on the floor when doing deads with control. I dont drop it i use control and then explode up
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby health4ni on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:49 pm

@Wardie: did you read the Poliquin info? It says there why not to bounce/drop it.

Also, I did originally write that I think only Powerlifters can get away with dropping it simply due to the nature of how they train. More often than not in the 1-3RM range. I still think it is beneficial for them to not drop it though (apart from a 1RM lift). It will make you stronger.

It doesn't surprise me that you find it difficult to lower under control due to your back issues. To me it would seem your lower back is weak, so perhaps lowering the weight for Deadlifts and lowering under control would likely help rectify the situation.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Marks1972 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:02 pm

Im not sure just dropping a heavy weight is particularly 'safe' either really, i used to do it and remember the sudden release of tension is quite a jolt. If you can get it up i dont see why you cant put it down again, so long as you follow the same travel route of keeping it close to the body and not just bend at the hips to put it down.

People dropping moderate weights from max pull height, much like the bouncy squatters, should be kicked in the neck.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Rilla on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:03 pm

health4ni wrote:Chin-up

If you don't want to use your chin, then do a pull-ups instead.


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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby SCOTT GALTON on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:06 pm

I think you need TO DECIDE what you are a powerlifter or a bodybuilder
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Flash Sketcha on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:16 pm

I rest the weight on the floor between each rep, not really a proper deadlift if you don't, i know some people bounce the weight up but personally i think resting the bar on the floor even if its for tiniest amount of time is the way forward.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Marks1972 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:25 pm

SCOTT GALTON wrote:I think you need TO DECIDE what you are a powerlifter or a bodybuilder


Who's that at Scott?
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby upright on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:56 pm

Marks1972 wrote:
SCOTT GALTON wrote:I think you need TO DECIDE what you are a powerlifter or a bodybuilder


Who's that at Scott?


Me? if so, At such an early stage of the journey, I'm training in cycles. At the moment, the main emphasis for me is strength, I've seen recently that looking more than you are is an invite for trouble and you will be found out and ritually humiliated.

I've "borrowed" some of the Muss' routine and stick to around 5*5 for the major lifts, and do the ancilliaries at 10*3. So for Deads, I do 5*5, but on the occasion that I up the weight and I don't manage 5, then I will drop back to previous PB and get the extra reps from there - so always doing a minimum of 25reps per session, and more if I have a particularly good improvement and want to go again, generally having 2 mins rest, but If I really want another weight, I'll have 3 on the PB set, which I get every week as I've only been doing them for 2 months and probably all noob gains in strength so please don't take me as being cocky...

To clarify how I've been doing deads, I drag the bastard up my shins, squeeze out at the top, and lower as per the route I came up, or very similar. I stop within a few mm of floor, do not pause and do not bounce but proceed immediately with the next rep. Day after I feel warm in the lower back but no pain.

It could well be that I'm nowhere near what I could be deading, hence I haven't picked up an injury... Although, within the first month I was already easily matching my squats which I've been doing for ages and have now surpassed them quite substantially.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby SCOTT GALTON on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:04 pm

SORRY its a general statement aimed at all no one specific
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Will on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:05 pm

I personally for light weights bring up and down just touching ever so lightly the floor and bring it back up again concentrating on form and keeping my core in good shape. However I like to mix in some powerlifting and do bring it back to the ground and lift froms scratch again.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Craig on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:07 pm

Start each rep from the ground, if you don't it will end up a sticking point in the future.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby upright on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:08 pm

Will wrote:I personally for light weights bring up and down just touching ever so lightly the floor and bring it back up again. However I like to mix in some powerlifting and do bring it back to the ground and lift froms scratch again.


So I'm doing it this way next time as the majority have advised this. Can only be positive to try doing it the way everyone else does it - although, I won't be dropping it cos I don't want it in the living room....Steady up, steady down.
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Re: Really dumb noob deadlift question...

Postby Will on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:25 pm

Even when doing my 200+ DLs as I bring it down I bring it down as far as possible and it only drops 4inches or so. Light say 100k DLs, you can get away with bring it down but I was always told you had to unload the bar so touch the ground enough for it to unload - but of course people may think differently. However for heavy ones I do like to unload the bar completely, take up the grip and start again, however I don't pause for more than a couple of seconds.
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