PWO shakes where always a big let down to me. I could never see a difference from using them and the fast carbs tended to bloat me and kill my appitite for the rest of the day. In fact as I trained in the evening all I really got from PWO shakes was a little fatter and thats not an easy task for me!

So lets take a closer look at PWO shakes and why they are a bunch of arse. You often see people with their shakes ready to go before they even leave the gym. If you've been training hard with heavy weight your body will have been producing catecholamines by the bucket load, its a good thing and helps you train to your potential. However they do have the effect of blunting the release of insulin even in the presence of high GI carbs, not only this but they interfere with insulins actions so any that has been released has less effect.

So theres the whole PWO carb thing blown out of the water!

We still need protein right? Well if you remember the point of the PWO carbs was to release insulin to help shuttle the aminos to the muscles, so even the protein could be taken at a more effective time at least if you splashing out on amino's on even better peptopro.

So what to do? I've looked at the work of David barr, Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale and Thib's new protcol to come up with my own little solution that both works, is easy enough on the digestive system, does not break the bank and doesn't taste of arse.

So an hour pre workout I take 140g of palitanose with the juice of 1 lemon and a pinch of him salts, then 15 min pre I drink half of my pre/during shake that consists of 1 bottle of lucozade original and 30g of peptopro. The gives the insulin response to blunt cortisol, all the carbs and aminos needed so that the workout does not tear down more than it builds. PWO I just eat about an hour after, a protein/fat meal with a couple of pecies of low GI fruit.

I came to the same conclusion as you, but I don't even bother with your very well thoughout pre workout shake.

I rely on the food I've eaten pre workout with BCAA Tablets taken during the session followed by a solid meal within an hour of training.

The only time I would deviate from this is if I was playing rugby as post game you do need fast carbs as a hard game of rugby places a much greater strain on the body than a weights session.

So that PWO shake just turns to fat then really rather than help at all?

Will wrote:So that PWO shake just turns to fat then really rather than help at all?

For me, I found I was gaining fat from post workout shakes and since dropping them, I've leaned out and am still gaining muslce.

Eeeeeiiiinteresting. Something to think about - problem is I'm always so hungry I could kill the first living creature I see after training.

hmm so in effect you are using 30g protein and 30g carbs pre and during? with a meal 60 mins after?

the pala stuff before could be anything i guess in terms of complex carbs?

interesting

Right now I'm following 50g Carbs 1hr or so pre, then 25g mix of fast Carbs and WMS 30mins pre and 10g Amino's. Post is 10g Amino's and 10g WMS and eat around an hour later with Bicarb and Lemon 15 mins before eating.

kp1512 wrote:hmm so in effect you are using 30g protein and 30g carbs pre and during? with a meal 60 mins after?

the pala stuff before could be anything i guess in terms of complex carbs?

interesting

palatinose contains no fibre, so no it can not be replaced by any complex carb, its specific.

its 30g of carbs and 15g's of peptopro (12gs is enough to protein puse with this stuff) pre and then the same taken during, I just mix it all in one container.

IMO Will PWO carbs taken at night will just make you fat, during the day it depends on your activity level/metabolism/current diet etc

Interesting stuff.

A few questions:

1. what's the goal of this Pre-WO plan?
That many carbs is not great for someone looking to lean up, i.e. an overweight/obese person in their 30s/40s/50s etc. I'm not against carbs for fat loss people, but that many would be counter-productive imo.

2. What's your reason for the lemon juice?

3. With regards to the 15min pre drink: what cortisol is there to blunt? There's going to be cortisol as well as all the hormones in our body floating about. I just wonder why they'd be extra/lots of cortisol to blunt 15min pre-workout.

4.

all the carbs and aminos needed so that the workout does not tear down more than it builds.

The hour or so lifting weights does not build muscle. That happens afterwards with correct recovery & nutrition.

--

I'm back to training in the morning again after my 8am client on Mon, Wed & Fri (so I train at ~9.15). I finish my breakfast at ~7.30am, which on those days has generally consisted of porridge plus 20g protein powder (pea isolate) + 2 tablespoons of olive oil / avocado oil / hemp oil. 15mins pre-WO I then have 20-30g carbs + 10g protein powder (pea or rice protein) plus ~4g creatine + himalayan salts + cinnamon powder.

So, my current preWO nutrition is actually quite similar with regards to carbs & protein.

I have a postWO shake of 30-40g plant protein + 50-70g carbs + 5g creatine + him salts + cinnamon powder.

This works well for me and I haven't put on any fat. I'm gaining strength and slowly gaining muscle.

I suspect that if I were to train in the evening then it may be a different story as you've found. However, luckily for me I never train in the evening.

My carb intake is relatively low in general and tends to only really contain complex carbs, bar fruit. And for dinner I don't have carbs at all as I don't eat till 8pm as I can't eat earlier (I work long days and get up v.early, and go to the gym before I go home).

Reasons why I used to have a PWO shake is because od the fact that a) I'm starving and need something to hold off the hunger till I get home b) always thought it was important to do so!


Alex, about the lemon water does it matter when in the day you take it? Or is it best first thing in the morning or at night? Or always before a meal?

lemon water (plus sodium bicarb) is best before a meal as it prepares the stomach for the acidity of the food, i.e. makes the stomach alkaline. Lemon also stimulates the release of bile that aids digestion (especially fat).

Arse to theis new School tosh

Give me a tub of whey and a bag of dextrose any day of the week

As you's can see...i have nothing constructive to add here

Will wrote:My carb intake is relatively low in general and tends to only really contain complex carbs, bar fruit. And for dinner I don't have carbs at all as I don't eat till 8pm as I can't eat earlier (I work long days and get up v.early, and go to the gym before I go home).

Reasons why I used to have a PWO shake is because od the fact that a) I'm starving and need something to hold off the hunger till I get home b) always thought it was important to do so!


Alex, about the lemon water does it matter when in the day you take it? Or is it best first thing in the morning or at night? Or always before a meal?

I'm the same as you but then I think we have similar gene's due to French influences.

Regarding the Lemob, as Scott says. I take mine with Bicarb at the 2 most important times for me which upon waking and 30-40mins post workout and 15 mins before post workout meal. If I end up doing 2 sessions in a day then I'll end up doing 3 bicarb drinks.

health4ni wrote:Interesting stuff.

A few questions:

1. what's the goal of this Pre-WO plan?
That many carbs is not great for someone looking to lean up, i.e. an overweight/obese person in their 30s/40s/50s etc. I'm not against carbs for fat loss people, but that many would be counter-productive imo.

The peptopro is in their to give a "protein pulse" (explained here by David Barr http://www.teamstaley.com/showthread.php?t=11804)

The palitinose is in their to provide the fuel for the training, now just as no muscle is built during the exersize, no significant fat is lost either (this also comes after....... think about it!), hence having the correct fuel to put you though your workout can both improve your performance and stop muscle break down (the body will rob BCAA's from muslce for energy if its prefered source is not available).

2. What's your reason for the lemon juice?

Taste, palatinose and him salt is like sugar and salt in water.

3. With regards to the 15min pre drink: what cortisol is there to blunt? There's going to be cortisol as well as all the hormones in our body floating about. I just wonder why they'd be extra/lots of cortisol to blunt 15min pre-workout.

There is no corisol 15min pre but then again there is also no catecholamines to stop the insulin being released, in effect you time the insulin release to come just before your first heavy sets so its floating around and stops to catabolic hormones in its tracks (pro bodybuilders do this very sucsessfully with exogenous insulin though its a risky protocol!). Here we mirror there methods but use the bodies own production.

4.

all the carbs and aminos needed so that the workout does not tear down more than it builds.

The hour or so lifting weights does not build muscle. That happens afterwards with correct recovery & nutrition.

Again its all about getting in first, you need insulin to build significant muscle, the catecholamines both block and blunt insulin robing us of the most productive time for building muscle, with increased androgen up take PWO its the perfect time to have insulin and the right aminos floating around but that can only be acheived by either injecting insulin PWO or taking high GI carbs pre workout.

quote]

Craig wrote:

health4ni wrote:Interesting stuff.

A few questions:

1. what's the goal of this Pre-WO plan?
That many carbs is not great for someone looking to lean up, i.e. an overweight/obese person in their 30s/40s/50s etc. I'm not against carbs for fat loss people, but that many would be counter-productive imo.

The peptopro is in their to give a "protein pulse" (explained here by David Barr http://www.teamstaley.com/showthread.php?t=11804)

The palitinose is in their to provide the fuel for the training, now just as no muscle is built during the exersize, no significant fat is lost either (this also comes after....... think about it!), hence having the correct fuel to put you though your workout can both improve your performance and stop muscle break down (the body will rob BCAA's from muslce for energy if its prefered source is not available).

2. What's your reason for the lemon juice?

Taste, palatinose and him salt is like sugar and salt in water.

3. With regards to the 15min pre drink: what cortisol is there to blunt? There's going to be cortisol as well as all the hormones in our body floating about. I just wonder why they'd be extra/lots of cortisol to blunt 15min pre-workout.

There is no corisol 15min pre but then again there is also no catecholamines to stop the insulin being released, in effect you time the insulin release to come just before your first heavy sets so its floating around and stops to catabolic hormones in its tracks (pro bodybuilders do this very sucsessfully with exogenous insulin though its a risky protocol!). Here we mirror there methods but use the bodies own production.

4.

all the carbs and aminos needed so that the workout does not tear down more than it builds.

The hour or so lifting weights does not build muscle. That happens afterwards with correct recovery & nutrition.

Again its all about getting in first, you need insulin to build significant muscle, the catecholamines both block and blunt insulin robing us of the most productive time for building muscle, with increased androgen up take PWO its the perfect time to have insulin and the right aminos floating around but that can only be acheived by either injecting insulin PWO or taking high GI carbs pre workout.

Good post there.

How long has your protocol looked like this Craig?

Thanks Craig, some good info. Food for thought for sure.

As I say with my current training times I couldn't do it exactly as you do. But I don't think it's that far removed either. I still find the PWO shake useful though; at least for me it's not a negative thing. But as already mentioned if it were late in the evening then I suspect it may affect me differently.

5 weeks with peptopro and palatinose

About a year with high GI carbs pre

About 3 months using EAA's with the high GI carbs pre

about 12 weeks with no post workout carbs

health4ni wrote:Thanks Craig, some good info. Food for thought for sure.

As I say with my current training times I couldn't do it exactly as you do. But I don't think it's that far removed either. I still find the PWO shake useful though; at least for me it's not a negative thing. But as already mentioned if it were late in the evening then I suspect it may affect me differently.

Ye during the day the carbs in the PWO shake would just get used for normal energy expenditure (IMO), creating an insulin release and a "protein pulse" pre workout can be used by most people. I would of thought that given the ultra fast take up of aminos (even more so peptopro) that they won't leave too much acidic waste and given your low protein diet the pulse should be even more effective as you will have less aminos floating around before the pulse.

what do you consider a low protein diet?

health4ni wrote:what do you consider a low protein diet?

One thats much lower than the rest of the people that have used a similar protocol to this and got results

its all relative Scott but you must be eating much less than most people who are gaining well at the gym, just goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat as it hasn't slowed you down.

haha

having tried a high protein diet all last year, I mainly got bloating & some extra fat. I was taking 150-210g of protein a day. Lots of animal protein and lots of whey & milk protein shakes. Being so lean it's quite easy for me to tell when I can fat.

I haven't had any whey or milk protein for 8 months. I don't eat much animal protein any more. I now consume 90-120g of protein a day. Granted a lot of other things have changed and a personal detox phase of at least 6 months was needed, which has since resulted in my gaining some more muscle and lots more strength.

So yeah, there are more ways to gain size.

--

One thing that has to be mentioned though is that your protocol is being alongside AAS usage right? That will have a different effect compared to someone that isn't on AAS. Still, and as already mentioned, some interesting and useful things to take away from this thread.

Am not sure that PWO is pants, but definitely agree that a PRE workout feed of a fast acting protein with all the EAAs and some carbs will do more to prevent catabolism and promote hypertrophy than taking the same nutrients PWO.

Getting the carbs in there first supress cortisol, spare muscle oxidation and allow for a higher percentage of any protein taken at the same to be used for anabolic processes rather than for glconeogenesis/conversion to energy. That's the theory, and studies like this one back it up. The insluin rise caused by the drink around the workout is a potent stimulator of many hypertrophic pathways at a cellular level and encourages the development of new cell nuclei - the first stage of myofibrilar growth. Even if a bit of a carb hater I think these are good enough reasons to still consider using carbs pre workout.

From a personal point of view, I find the PRE drink performance enhancing and more so that just having a good carb & protein meal a few hour before the workout. I also find a PWO drink enhances recovery after longer sessions but doesn't make a difference after shorter sessions.

The protocol was not desgned by me I just adapted what was already out there, protein pulsing is actually less effective for people on AAS as their protein synthesis is already high. Same goes for cortisol reduction, as the androgens are already highly anti catabolic. They only thing they do is allow you more room for manover with the carbs, a natural would have to hit the nail on the head with the carb levels, more so the high GI carbs than the palitinose.

So in effect its more effective for the natural but they will need to hit the nail squarly on the head to get pure lean gains out of it.

Rab wrote:Arse to theis new School tosh

Give me a tub of whey and a bag of dextrose any day of the week

As you's can see...i have nothing constructive to add here

LOLOL I love you man

Very interesting stuff and I need to read this again to absorb it.

Will add that I need to have carbs after rugby so I don't start chewing on my teammates (and not in a good way either) but if I've only been to the gym, carbs afterwards, when I train in the evenings just makes me get fat.

When cutting I needed the carbs beforehand to get the energy to train and wasn't hungry afterwards. Tho if I do have carbs I've been getting on a hell of a lot better since switching to WMS.