mmm well, I've had a few months off it now, so may add it back in for a few weeks and see what happens.

Dtlv74 wrote:How much Taurine do you take big Si and Cleaver?

I used to take 4-6g as part of my favourite pre workout amino stack and loved it (the stack as a whole)... but never have cramping issues with or without it.

10g. It also helps regulate blood sugar levels which can be useful. I always feel more "on" when taking Taurine which is unusal for me as I don't usually notice supplements.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kenwood-BL450-Blender-Mill-1-6L-600w-Goblet-2-Speeds_W0QQitemZ250484155822QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_Kitchen_Juicers_Blenders_Smoothie_Makers?hash=item3a5204e5ae&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

ok this one looks good then lol, some one stop me if its shit, coz im gonna buy it very soon! LOL

ash i got the black version of that and use it for wpi and oats shakes and it does what it says on the tin

kp1512 wrote:ash i got the black version of that and use it for wpi and oats shakes and it does what it says on the tin

booom, cheers mate

simon m wrote:

Dtlv74 wrote:How much Taurine do you take big Si and Cleaver?

I used to take 4-6g as part of my favourite pre workout amino stack and loved it (the stack as a whole)... but never have cramping issues with or without it.

10g. It also helps regulate blood sugar levels which can be useful. I always feel more "on" when taking Taurine which is unusal for me as I don't usually notice supplements.

Yep, it definitely has a good nootropic effect. That was the main benefit for me in terms of training when I used it.

Must admit I don't get much from taurine or creatine but then in theory creatine should benefit me more for rugby as it's used more in energy systems with bouts of 10secs - 20secs.

same here - i have never got much from taurine - creatine I always do for about 2-3 weeks

Dtlv74 wrote:How much Taurine do you take big Si and Cleaver?

I used to take 4-6g as part of my favourite pre workout amino stack and loved it (the stack as a whole)... but never have cramping issues with or without it.

10g before bed generally. Do not use is it pre as its a inhibitory neurotransmitter.

cleaver wrote:

Dtlv74 wrote:How much Taurine do you take big Si and Cleaver?

I used to take 4-6g as part of my favourite pre workout amino stack and loved it (the stack as a whole)... but never have cramping issues with or without it.

10g before bed generally. Do not use is it pre as its a inhibitory neurotransmitter.

Yeah but i like the nootropic effect for training - to me it gives a 'zoned in' kind of feeling... sort of narrows focus to what you are doing. I think different people react differently to things like this though. For example most things that people take as stims tend to make me jumpy and actually throw my focus and concentration off... whereas both taurine and GABA, both inhibitory neurotransmitters, i find help focus me for training and block out peripheral distractions - and don't seem to negatively impact strength or muscle contraction at all.

I'm even more focused on Taurine which may explained the strength benefits I get. However, like all supps, it needs cycling.

ash fletcher wrote:http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kenwood-BL450-Blender-Mill-1-6L-600w-Goblet-2-Speeds_W0QQitemZ250484155822QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_Kitchen_Juicers_Blenders_Smoothie_Makers?hash=item3a5204e5ae&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

ok this one looks good then lol, some one stop me if its shit, coz im gonna buy it very soon! LOL

looks shit mate






nah only joshing. Looks good. KP uses it for his left-over KFC & MacDie's burgers so must be powerful
Cheap too

I must agree with Ollie and Si about the Taurine. It normally takes something pretty hefty to make any difference to me, but I really do notice the ability to focus better with Taurine. As someone who usually can't focus for toffee that's a pretty big recommendation!

Pre workout stimulation (or anything) isn't needed if you are recovered, nourished and psychologically ready to train, i think it is important to train in a natural state and not use stress hormones to force it out of yourself, this often works against you through rapidly increasing cortisol levels.

Post workout, due to decreased insulin sensitivity, decreased digestive function and benefits of not replenishing glucose immediately on cell singalling, gene phosphorylation and GH/testosterone release it is best not to consume anything immediately, it is good to leave at least an hour and start to eat when you feel ravenously hungry (if you feel hungry immediately after a workout this is due to hypoglycaemia) the body becomes most insulin sensitive (the most at any point during the day) after this time period as catecholamine levels reduce and cell singalling kicks in (i.e AMP activated kinase) which effects will be vastly reduced by immediate feeding, especially high carbohydrate or amino acid loading.

People fear getting into a catabolic state at the end of the workout, the truth is that the benefits of delaying feeding by an hour + on anabolism outweigh the catabolic environment post workout in the long term.

Because insulin sensitivity/glucose control is decreased, or at least disrupted immediately after a workout consuming carbs here can lead to hyperinsulinanemia then hypoglycaemic rebound 1-2 hours later, putting you back into a catabolic state quite quickly, increasing cortisol etc.

Also, remember to avoid taking exogenous antioxidant compounds (i.e vit C, vit E) post workout, it works against one of the main principles of the workout, oxidative stress induced hormesis.
It is an acceptable time however to take endogenous antioxidant precursors: zinc, cysteine etc.
It is still debated the effects of 'antioxidant' phytochemicals (i.e polyphenols, anthocyanins etc) as these have both a direct antioxidative effect and a pro oxidative effect (which would be beneficial post wokrout for hormetic augmentation)

As far as taurine goes, brillant supplement....there are so many benefits it'd take me ages to list them! (most are related to cellular pump/electrolyte/cell signalling/neurotransmitter functions however, pretty vital and powerful stuff for all athletes) but remember to cycle it.
General rule of thumb:
-Essential nutrients (i.e vitamins, minerals, amino acids, fatty acids) do not need cycling and need to be taken as a continous 'supply'
-Non essential/conditionally essential compounds that the body can produce endogenously can be supplemented in supraphysiological amounts for benefical effects but should not be taken on a continous high dosage and should be cycled due to issues with downregulation of edogenous production pathways.
Taurine fits into the second group.... (for cats, taurine is an essential compound, this is why it is added to cat food!)
From the research i have seen however, a low continous (similar to that provided by diet) dose of taurine is acceptable and beneficial, i tend to recommend up to 500mg daily for this purpose.

Interesting read: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/conte ... 287/2/E255

Pain wrote:Pre workout stimulation (or anything) isn't needed if you are recovered, nourished and psychologically ready to train, i think it is important to train in a natural state and not use stress hormones to force it out of yourself, this often works against you through rapidly increasing cortisol levels.

Post workout, due to decreased insulin sensitivity, decreased digestive function and benefits of not replenishing glucose immediately on cell singalling, gene phosphorylation and GH/testosterone release it is best not to consume anything immediately, it is good to leave at least an hour and start to eat when you feel ravenously hungry (if you feel hungry immediately after a workout this is due to hypoglycaemia) the body becomes most insulin sensitive (the most at any point during the day) after this time period as catecholamine levels reduce and cell singalling kicks in (i.e AMP activated kinase) which effects will be vastly reduced by immediate feeding, especially high carbohydrate or amino acid loading.

People fear getting into a catabolic state at the end of the workout, the truth is that the benefits of delaying feeding by an hour + on anabolism outweigh the catabolic environment post workout in the long term.

Because insulin sensitivity/glucose control is decreased, or at least disrupted immediately after a workout consuming carbs here can lead to hyperinsulinanemia then hypoglycaemic rebound 1-2 hours later, putting you back into a catabolic state quite quickly, increasing cortisol etc.

Also, remember to avoid taking exogenous antioxidant compounds (i.e vit C, vit E) post workout, it works against one of the main principles of the workout, oxidative stress induced hormesis.
It is an acceptable time however to take endogenous antioxidant precursors: zinc, cysteine etc.
It is still debated the effects of 'antioxidant' phytochemicals (i.e polyphenols, anthocyanins etc) as these have both a direct antioxidative effect and a pro oxidative effect (which would be beneficial post wokrout for hormetic augmentation)

As far as taurine goes, brillant supplement....there are so many benefits it'd take me ages to list them! (most are related to cellular pump/electrolyte/cell signalling/neurotransmitter functions however, pretty vital and powerful stuff for all athletes) but remember to cycle it.
General rule of thumb:
-Essential nutrients (i.e vitamins, minerals, amino acids, fatty acids) do not need cycling and need to be taken as a continous 'supply'
-Non essential/conditionally essential compounds that the body can produce endogenously can be supplemented in supraphysiological amounts for benefical effects but should not be taken on a continous high dosage and should be cycled due to issues with downregulation of edogenous production pathways.
Taurine fits into the second group.... (for cats, taurine is an essential compound, this is why it is added to cat food!)
From the research i have seen however, a low continous (similar to that provided by diet) dose of taurine is acceptable and beneficial, i tend to recommend up to 500mg daily for this purpose.

Interesting read: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/conte ... 287/2/E255

Good post... but will come back to it later when I have time to post a more detailed reply because I think a couple of the points made (nothing major but worth replying too) are too generalised... and a couple of bits of unproven theory stated as if established fact. Not attacking your post, just my view.

Nice link on the taurine.

Pain wrote:
Post workout, due to decreased insulin sensitivity, decreased digestive function and benefits of not replenishing glucose immediately on cell singalling, gene phosphorylation and GH/testosterone release it is best not to consume anything immediately, it is good to leave at least an hour and start to eat when you feel ravenously hungry (if you feel hungry immediately after a workout this is due to hypoglycaemia) the body becomes most insulin sensitive (the most at any point during the day) after this time period as catecholamine levels reduce and cell singalling kicks in (i.e AMP activated kinase) which effects will be vastly reduced by immediate feeding, especially high carbohydrate or amino acid loading.

People fear getting into a catabolic state at the end of the workout, the truth is that the benefits of delaying feeding by an hour + on anabolism outweigh the catabolic environment post workout in the long term.

Because insulin sensitivity/glucose control is decreased, or at least disrupted immediately after a workout consuming carbs here can lead to hyperinsulinanemia then hypoglycaemic rebound 1-2 hours later, putting you back into a catabolic state quite quickly, increasing cortisol etc.

This was pretty much my main point on this thread and my reason for suggesting that people should take their fast carbs pre workout, you need to get the insulin released before the workout as post workout the stress hormones block its release as well as decreasing your sensitivity to it.

Craig - but takine fast carbs will / can make you sluggish in as little as 20 mins during the workout....so I dont know if this is a good approach? Clearly carb ingestion and insulin release have a correlation - so I am assuming you are saying keep them <30g?

Craig said that he takes:
1. 140g carbs 1 hour pre
2. 30g carbs 15mins pre + 30g protein

--

Some more interesting info in this post. Makes me think I might try delaying my PWO drink for a bit longer; say 45-60mins if I can manage it. Just to see how it affects me.

kp1512 wrote:Craig - but takine fast carbs will / can make you sluggish in as little as 20 mins during the workout....so I dont know if this is a good approach? Clearly carb ingestion and insulin release have a correlation - so I am assuming you are saying keep them <30g?

Feck me your slow

If you take your fast carbs 15 min before your first heavy set the catecholamines / stress hormones from working out will stop the crash / sluggish feeling but you'll still have the insulin blocking the cortisol output. Taking peptopro with this also means you have the right aminos present to cause another anabolic stimulus (this happens if working out or NOT). The complex carbs an hour before (I use palatinose and would mix it with rice obidextrin if it was available) give easy to digest carbs to fuel the workout.

really interested thread tbf. I normally have around 30 grams whey flavoured with some nesquick in water around 30 mins after my workout. Is that any good or do you think I should wait longer?

Craig wrote:If you take your fast carbs 15 min before your first heavy set the catecholamines / stress hormones from working out will stop the crash / sluggish feeling but you'll still have the insulin blocking the cortisol output. Taking peptopro with this also means you have the right aminos present to cause another anabolic stimulus (this happens if working out or NOT). The complex carbs an hour before (I use palatinose and would mix it with rice obidextrin if it was available) give easy to digest carbs to fuel the workout.

I wa thinking some more about this and tbh for the past 3-4 weeks I have pretty much been doing this. Kind of. Breakfast on weight training days is porridge. Then 1.5hrs later I'll take ~20-30g carbs with ~20g rice or pea protein (rice is faster). Sure, the porridge is not the same as palatinose, but it's slow digesting. I've found that my sessions have been great (except this week, but that's due to last week on this prog that has almost pushed me to overtraining).

Scott I've been very much the same as you with carb timings with breakfast when training mornings and found energy levels to be spot on. I've simply been adding around 20g-30g carbs pre and 20g cabrs during.

Cool. Good to hear that this does seem to work. I'm not doing carbs during mind you; just a green drink with some sodium bicarb.

health4ni wrote:Cool. Good to hear that this does seem to work. I'm not doing carbs during mind you; just a green drink with some sodium bicarb.

I figured taking some carbs during will have some benefit especially I'll be waiting an hour after training before taking on any food. I'll still hit lemon and bicarb about 40 mins after workout though and may add greens during.

Pain wrote:Also, remember to avoid taking exogenous antioxidant compounds (i.e vit C, vit E) post workout, it works against one of the main principles of the workout, oxidative stress induced hormesis.
It is an acceptable time however to take endogenous antioxidant precursors: zinc, cysteine etc.
It is still debated the effects of 'antioxidant' phytochemicals (i.e polyphenols, anthocyanins etc) as these have both a direct antioxidative effect and a pro oxidative effect (which would be beneficial post wokrout for hormetic augmentation)

The thing to remember with hormetic responses is what they are by definition - positive adaptive responses to stress when the stressor is low, but negative when the stresor level is high. In the case of pro-oxidants/ROS, the response varies widely according to the type and duration of training and also experience level and consistency of the exercisor.

The following paper (http://www.dynamic-med.com/content/8/1/1) is a good meta analysis/review of antioxidant supplementation in relation to multiple forms of training. The sheer variety of responses to different protocols suggests that there can be no 'one size fits all' answer to taking antioxidants PWO. In the case of marathon running, or long duration cardio, antioxidants PWO are shown to mediate a ROS response which is way too aggresive to lead to a beneficial hormetic adaptation. In the case of resistance training the jury is still out (because there are so many different ways to train doing differing levels of damage, utilising different energy substrates and producing different pwo hormonal levels), and while in general terms for consistent moderate exercise the hormetic response would indeed be nulified by antioxidant supplementation, for competetive level training or periods of overreaching as part of a periodised plan it may well become benficial.

On the main area of this topic - PWO carbs, i totally agree with the majority view that in most cases it's just not necessary, with far greater advantage being in taking them pre- or not at all... although, and I do keep saying this, that certain exercise protocols (remember not every one who exercises just does 45-60 mins weights) may well benefit from fairly aggressive glycogen replenishment, especially those who perform long duration cardio training, train very frequently and within a particular VO2 max range, or train in multiple sessions throughout the day.