Pre Exhaust

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Pre Exhaust

Postby kp1512 on Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:26 pm

As Ive been getting some good results off this lately on legs and arms I thought Id just put down a post on how BAD data and research on this principle is - and maybe why alot of people who cant think for themselves rubbish this valuable techinique!

Ok first this bit of researDoes Pre-Exhausting Small Muscles Work?

by Jack A. Medina, M.A.
and Roy E. Vartabedian, Dr.P.H.
September 29, 2008


In this issue:

* Does Pre-Exhausting Small Muscle Groups Before Working Large Muscle Groups Work?

* Announcing New Book Release from Jack Medina, M.A. and Roy Vartabedian, Dr.P.H.


Jack Medina
The Theory

Bodybuilders often talk about how they like to "pre-exhaust" certain muscle groups when they train, and as a result there will be greater gains in size, strength, and power. Is this theory true?


Biceps and triceps muscle
Details Behind the Theory

The theory behind pre-exhausting small muscle groups first (before large groups) in training is based upon the assumption that most multi-joint exercises (bench presses, chin-ups, etc.) have "weak links." These weak links are small muscle groups (triceps in a bench press, biceps in a chin-up).

Theoretically, when you fail on one of these exercises, you fail because the weak link is failing. By pre-exhausting the major muscle groups (pecs in a bench press, lats in a chin) with an isolation exercise, you would, in theory, be putting the big and small muscle groups on a level so they would receive more equal stimulation.


Research on Muscle Pre-Exhaustion

Brazilian researchers compared the effects of pre-exhaustion to priority training (doing your multi-joint exercise first in a training session) on upper-body muscle activation and exercise performance (Gentile, P., et al. "Effects of exercise order on upper-body muscle activation and exercise performance, Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 21: 1082-1086, 2007).

The results of this study question the whole concept of pre-exhaustion and conclude that the theory is wrong. Pre-exhaustion doesn't work because it is based on a flawed concept of how muscle fibers are recruited. With pre-exhaustion, you assume that, as a muscle gets tired, more fibers are recruited until it fails (until you cannot lift the weight anymore).

However, most research shows when you are using heavy weights, most muscle fibers are recruited right from the beginning of an exercise. So there is no need to pre-exhaust your pecs before a bench press. If you are using heavy weight, your pecs will be using all the muscle fibers they can to move that weight.


The Bottom Line

This study also showed that, to get the most out of an exercise, you should do it first in the training session. Subjects in this study performed best on the bench press when they did that exercise first.

Reference: Journal of Pure Power, Volume III, Number 2, June, 2008.ch

http://www.jackmedina.com/newsletter/september-2008.htm



ok thats all fine and now this

In a 2003 study in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, Swedish researchers found that when guys performed a leg extension (isolation exercise) followed by a leg press (compound exercise), the quadriceps muscle was used less in the leg press than it would have been if the leg press had been performed alone. So the pre-exhaustion technique actually had the opposite effect of what was intended: It decreased muscle activity and reduced strength. A more productive method would be to opt for "post-exhaustion" training, in which you complete the heavier compound exercise before the isolation movement. In the compound exercise, you'll exhaust the muscles that assist the target muscle, forcing the main muscles to work harder in the isolation set.

When and how: Use the "post-exhaustion" technique at the end of a workout to give a lagging muscle group extra work.


Both of the above studies concluded that Preexhaust was not good. Ready for this? They based it on the fact that during the compund movement there was less activity in the muscle fibres then doing it without the pre-exhaust


Can anyone see how this proves it worked?!?!

LOL - You gota laugh!!
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Dtlv74 on Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:13 pm

I can see exactly what you mean kp.... and you are right.

I have no issues with pre-exhaust... that thread on another forum about it was amazing and I often still take the piss out of that, but pre-exhaust itself is fine. I guess the main question is whether its any more effective at bringing up a muscle than other techniques.

Pre-exhaust supersets I haven't done in a while but selecting exercises in a pre-exhaust sequence i do often - leg curls before RDL's, bentarm pullovers before bentover rows... goes against the wisdom of heaviest/strongest/most hormone pumping exercise first but it works well in terms of training a muscle to exhaustion.
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby kp1512 on Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:15 pm

I agree det.

As said - ive done well on my arms and legs with hammer preacher and leg ext first then moving onto compound. I guess it goes back to changing things. With me changing things every 6 weeks now - I may even be diluting some of the results myself - as my body could just be taken off guard.
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby simon m on Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:06 am

Pre Exhaust - my finest hour!

Pre exhaust works, and it works wells if used sparingly anyonme who says otherwise really has no idea of what they're talikng about (willis!)
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Karlos on Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:54 pm

Pre-exhaust?! what a load of pansy bodybuilder tosh!
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby simon m on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:05 pm

Karlos wrote:Pre-exhaust?! what a load of pansy bodybuilder tosh!

That's it! You've done it now! Meet me at the squat rack for a Kick Back Challenge! I'm gonna isolate your arse boy!
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Karlos on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:11 pm

Lol! - Kickback challenge :D
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Bison on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:15 pm

Right I've been thinking - yes I needed a sit down after - here's a theory on how pre-exhaust might work for some people.

Some exercises, especially compounds, it can be difficult to target the muscle you're actually doing the exercise for. Squats are a great example as the lower back can tire way before the more powerful, larger quads. So the weight gets racked and quads are only 40% taxed, sometimes they might not even feel that fatigued?

Have you ever done squats with a niggly or sore back? All you can think about is that muscle group and it's even harder to target the legs right??

Now have you ever done squats with DOMS in the legs? Awesome leg workout that day huh? Not much back work there and you literally crawled to the car right??

My point is about the mind to muscle connection, so important for bodybuilders. I find it much easier to get this going with a warmed up muscle and even more so with a sore muscle as I can already 'feel' what's going on. Damn I've had DOMS so bad I could feel brushing my teeth as a full body exercise! :lol:

Pre-fatigue would certainly go some way to helping you focus and feel the working muscle and thus make it more productive.... from a bodybuilding POV?

Try doing some straight arm lat pulldowns and then chins - you aint thinking about your arms/grip/shoulders now are you?

Leg Ext before squats - those screaming quads easily drown out your poor whimpering lower back eh?
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Karlos on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:30 pm

I see what you're saying bison, but does this fatigue or muscle soreness you can feel necessarily mean the muscle you're targeting is getting a better workout? Imo, no. It's just the fatigued muscle telling you it's fatigued. If someone doesn't get good leg stimulation from squats, it is down to technique, their biomechanics and muscle imbalance/overpowering.

Instead of pre-exhaust add the extra isolation sets after the compounds, or rectify form of the given compound exercise, or choose another exercise which will stimulate the muscle group you're wishing to target.

I'm not against pre-exhaust entirely, i just don't think it works... :lol:
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Dtlv74 on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:34 pm

Certainly with an exercise like chins or pullups it's not the lats that fail, it's the teres muscles, rear delts, grip and rhomboids... but pre exhaust the lats with pullovers or straight arm pulldowns and you fry the lats and chins/pullups almost feel like a different exercise to how they normally do.

I think another point about pre-exhaust is that since muscles recruit fibers in groups, and as these groups of fibers become tired in a workout/set/rep you recruit different fiber groups (each made up of a slightly different number and proportion of fiber types), so the fiber groups that will be called on during the compound exercise in a pre-exhaust superset will be different to those recruited when doing the same exercise fresh... i guess pre-exhaust could be seen as a good way to recruit fibers not normally hit so hard within the compound exercise due to the normally recruited fiber groups being too exhausted to do the work.
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Bison on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:39 pm

Karlos wrote:I see what you're saying bison, but does this fatigue or muscle soreness you can feel necessarily mean the muscle you're targeting is getting a better workout? Imo, no. It's just the fatigued muscle telling you it's fatigued. If someone doesn't get good leg stimulation from squats, it is down to technique, their biomechanics and muscle imbalance/overpowering.

Instead of pre-exhaust add the extra isolation sets after the compounds, or rectify form of the given compound exercise, or choose another exercise which will stimulate the muscle group you're wishing to target.

I'm not against pre-exhaust entirely, i just don't think it works... :lol:

I'm just saying pre-exhaust could be another tool to use for some bodybuilders. There's also the point of it allowing or even forcing you to use lighter weights, which could help some old foggies ;)

As a powerlifter you have to learn to squat and deadlift perfectly, bodybuilders don't and most won't. You've just shown in the other thread that inclines aren't that important to you so what do you do? Ignore them? ;)

It's just another possible option is all I'm saying.
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Karlos on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:41 pm

Det, So you're saying pre-exhaust would divert the stress away from the muscle? Doing the opposite of what it's meant to?
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Karlos on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:45 pm

Bison wrote:I'm just saying pre-exhaust could be another tool to use for some bodybuilders. There's also the point of it allowing or even forcing you to use lighter weights, which could help some old foggies ;)

As a powerlifter you have to learn to squat and deadlift perfectly, bodybuilders don't and most won't. You've just shown in the other thread that inclines aren't that important to you so what do you do? Ignore them? ;)

It's just another possible option is all I'm saying.


I'm not really against pre-exhaust or inclines, as you say another tool in the box and i'm all about variety.

I'm sure i'll do incline DBs again, probably pretty soon, after my hols.
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Bison on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:47 pm

Dtlv74 wrote:Certainly with an exercise like chins or pullups it's not the lats that fail, it's the teres muscles, rear delts, grip and rhomboids... but pre exhaust the lats with pullovers or straight arm pulldowns and you fry the lats and chins/pullups almost feel like a different exercise to how they normally do.

I think another point about pre-exhaust is that since muscles recruit fibers in groups, and as these groups of fibers become tired in a workout/set/rep you recruit different fiber groups (each made up of a slightly different number and proportion of fiber types), so the fiber groups that will be called on during the compound exercise in a pre-exhaust superset will be different to those recruited when doing the same exercise fresh... i guess pre-exhaust could be seen as a good way to recruit fibers not normally hit so hard within the compound exercise due to the normally recruited fiber groups being too exhausted to do the work.

Yes. Also lets not forget it's very, very difficult to recruit the maximum amount of fibre's, certainly for a casual lifter. I think a big difference between us and pro's is the ability to do this, it's not just the gear there's many other things.

Pre-fatigue could possibly help in this...?

Chins are a bitch, the biggest problem is getting good at them but once you do they're awesome.
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Dtlv74 on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:52 pm

Karlos wrote:Det, So you're saying pre-exhaust would divert the stress away from the muscle? Doing the opposite of what it's meant to?


Well the isloation exercise depletes the energy stores of the muscle, builds up lactate, changes its pH etc and does all the normal things to tire a muscle... so you are taking that muscle straight into another working set it's enevitably going to be starting still exhausted with limited capacity to work.

If the second exercise was an isolation exercise for the same muscle you'd probably only get a few pathetic reps before failure but because the second exercise is a multi muscle compound, other muscle come in and 'support' the traget muscle allowing it to exert and exhaust more completely.... so yes, the target muscle does less of the work in the second exercise but the overall stimualtion is more total. Possibly. lol.
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Bison on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:59 pm

Though I've been reading up on HST again just lately and he says "Pre-Exhaust" is useless, just like "muscle confusion" lol
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Dtlv74 on Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:06 pm

Bison wrote:Though I've been reading up on HST again just lately and he says "Pre-Exhaust" is useless, just like "muscle confusion" lol


Well i think comparing HST (a whole periodised workout) to Pre-exhaust (a way of doing supersets) is like comparing apples to tractors. I think pre-exhaust has value but like most other techniques imo, is something to include occasionally. HST is great (one of the most productive routines i've followed), but in a way have always thought it includes a bit of muscle confusion itself... certainly no two workouts in the whole 6-8 weeks are the same.
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Bison on Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:15 pm

Dtlv74 wrote:Well i think comparing HST (a whole periodised workout) to Pre-exhaust (a way of doing supersets) is like comparing apples to tractors. I think pre-exhaust has value but like most other techniques imo, is something to include occasionally. HST is great (one of the most productive routines i've followed), but in a way have always thought it includes a bit of muscle confusion itself... certainly no two workouts in the whole 6-8 weeks are the same.

Yeah I only mentioned it as HST is one of those routines that arguably based on more solid ground than most, he dismisses pre-exhaust, worthy mention?

Do you mean with the A & B splits? Funny you should say that as I've written up a couple of routines and the more I've caught up and re-read all the basic HST stuff the more I'm leaning towards just a single workout this time.
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Spit on Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:21 pm

Dtlv74 wrote:Well i think comparing HST (a whole periodised workout) to Pre-exhaust (a way of doing supersets) is like comparing apples to tractors.


Clearly tractors FTW, can't believe you're even bothering to argue it, haven't you seen the partial ROM crop circle EMG graphs? :roll:


Bison, what you're saying sounds like a good reason to include some activation work in your warmup, e.g. some dedicated glute work before deadlifts to make sure they're firing properly. Beyond that though, I can't see why you'd put isolation before compound work and limit the weight you can use in the latter; much better to do deads then leg curls than the other way round (although personally the point is moot as I'd rather rub shit in my hair than be seen doing leg curls, but you see what I'm getting at).
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Bison on Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:28 pm

LOL well that's one way of putting it... not a fan of the old curls then mate? :lol:
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Spit on Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:36 pm

Bison wrote:LOL well that's one way of putting it... not a fan of the old curls then mate? :lol:



Nah, they're not for me. I'm not a BBer and I guess that if your sole concern is size then they might have their place, but your hamstrings NEVER function independently of your glutes in 'real life' so I can't see why you'd want to train them that way; I'm really not into iso machine work and especially so for big muscles like the hamstrings, but this is a conversation for another time- don't want to derail the thread completely!
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Re: Pre Exhaust

Postby Bison on Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:43 pm

Yeah.... imagine a thread on these forums going off topic!! :shock: :D

I agree though, RDL's for the win!
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