I've been looking at my training journals and to be fair my bench has not been increasing much over the past 6 months+.

Initially I trippled it, but from then on it's been creeping very slowly.

I have pretty weak shoulders and i'm guessing that they are possibly the cause of this? True it would help if I got my bodyweight up, as that has not really changed too much either.

Another reason i'm thinking about the front delts being the problem is that my dipping strength has increased a lot, and keeps increasing.

Initially I did Dips at bodyweight and with 10KG, I can now manage 5/6 with 40KG if I get in the zone.

As for my benching, in the same space of time I may have added say 5KG, or 10KG (if I really get in the zone and pump myself up).

I've still been gaining size (I train for building remember), so have you got any suggestions?

I think I need to start training shoulders seperately again when i've finished this upper/lower.

Do rotator cuff exercises.
And do DB benching only for a month or two. The go back to BB benching to see what happened. Then return to DBs cos you liked them much better

I don't do any BB benching any more. tbh I never did a lot anyway; always preferred DBs. I think it's a better exercise anyway. And unless you have a reason like powerlifting etc to do benching my opinion is there's no need. Sure, now and again to shake things up etc, but 90% of the time I'd stick to DBs. They hit higher threshold motor units anyway. Greater ROM. More stabilisation required; which will help your shoulder become stronger.

i know many people will say "no, that's bollocks. BB benching is great etc". But BB benching is numero uno reason for shoulder impingement amongst bodybuilders/trainees etc. Plus you don't need a spotter for DBs.

And if you do DBs, make sure you use the neutral grip position; palms face each other. Why? Cos it puts the shoulder in the natural anatomical position, thus no shoulder impingement issues. Plus increased ROM.

I do more DB bench than BB especially since being able to dip, though instead of a neutral grip I start as if it was a BB, then twist the wrist during the movement so that they DBs touch with grip neutral. adds a nice squeeze through the motion.

Another thing to consider is your back, strong back will help with benching, so doing something like pendlay rows with your grip width the same as you would BB press could help.

Morba wrote:I do more DB bench than BB especially since being able to dip, though instead of a neutral grip I start as if it was a BB, then twist the wrist during the movement so that they DBs touch with grip neutral. adds a nice squeeze through the motion.

actually this is a great variation. And I'm glad you do it this way. Cos I see many people do the opposite. That is have DBs like BB grip when at bottom range, then twist to neutral once up. BUT this misses the point of being kind to your shoulders.

Nice one Morba

I found increasing CG Bench strength really helpled bring up my Bench Press strength which always lagged compared to DB Press strength. Strong shoulders are also related, as are a strong BOR.

I do prefer DB Press but I have little choice due to the lack of DB weight so have mainly done BB over the past couple of years.

Alex wrote:I do prefer DB Press but I have little choice due to the lack of DB weight so have mainly done BB over the past couple of years.

what tempo do you use Alex on the DBs? How many secs to lower the weight to chest level?

I do have a slight interest in possibly competing in powerlifting, depending on what sort of lifts I can achieve. If I didn't have this interest I wouldn't be asking the question (hence the post being in PowerBuilding not Bodybuilding forum section)

Obviously it's out of the question for the moment because i've got lower back issues.

health4ni wrote:

Alex wrote:I do prefer DB Press but I have little choice due to the lack of DB weight so have mainly done BB over the past couple of years.

what tempo do you use Alex on the DBs? How many secs to lower the weight to chest level?

On average maybe 1-2. DB Fly's I go a lot slower, maybe 3/4 and hold once stretched. I'm guessing you'll suggest 3/4 second tempo for DB Press but just not for me and I'd rather go with BB until bigger DB's come in

Form would be a big one then, powerlifting bench is not like bodybuilding. so many things can make a difference:

grip width
back arch
straight bar (even a small bend can make a difference)
the angle you lift at
being helped off the stand (so that you arent pulling it too far over you before actually pressing)

many other things can make small differences, but overall make a huge difference to the amount you will be able to press.

having a bad back will be a bit of a limiter, but shouldnt be too bad.

I agree fully with H4NI

DB's are better than bb press. For whatever reason, i also find they give more steady and consistent gains than BB which tenst go go stale very often.

With regards to grip. I instinctivley turn my hands about 45 deg inward from the bb position...but not quite as neutral as H4NI suggests.

I don't want to start worrying about the arching the back to make the rom shorter etc right now as I don't think it's relevant.

My grip width is fairly typical, I don't go overly wide, when the bar is nearly at my chest my arms will be at 90 degrees.

I think it's probably just a case of going for lower reps and specifically trying to increase on it. I can't see any problem with changing my bench to 8x3 in a few weeks from 4x6?

Large part of the reason is fairly simple i reckon, your just not concentrating on improving your powerlifts enough and doing lots of heavy assistence etc.

you could some close grip pressing though..

p.s

wardie if you want to compete in powerlifting, why on earth do you think arching is irrelevant? You need to bench like a powerlifter if you want to lift weights like one. Get an arch in your back, feet underneath you, pinch your shoulder blades back, tuck your elbows in a bit on way down,when on chest drive with your legs and arms, then on way back up start to flair them abit near lockout

I think it's irrelevant at this stage because although competing is in the back of my mind, I don't plan on it any time soon.

I think my strength is at the stage where technique isn't really the major issue, it's my actual strength that really needs work for the moment.

Just reading radical00s journey on MP, same age as me putting up 8x80KG on bench (I did 2x80KG last night)...

I'm probably stronger than him on the flyes though, which is a much more chest specific exercise so i've got a feeling that somewhere i'm lagging, and I think it's got to be my front delts or triceps (probably tris).

I've also struggled with strength on chest movements Wardie. My chest & shoulders are significantly weaker than my back/arms/legs and I think this is a genetic thing. I train with my mate and he's stronger on chest/shoulders but not quite as strong on the back/leg lifts. I suppose some people have just got to work harder on different muscle groups and put more effort in and take more time. (Which sucks )

As you say, it sounds like your technique and training approach is fine, it's just that chest strength doesn't come as quickly to some. Progress can be slow and it's a bitch sometimes I know .

Also Wardie, you're quite a bit lighter than me so lb for lb you'd probably be pushing more weight than me tbh.

There seems to be few who are balanced between ther pushing and pulling. Im much stronger at pressing movements like db press and dips opposed to my feeble deadlifting and bent over rows.

Its definitely a genetic issue, it's to do with body structure as much as anything. My rows, squat and dead are so much stronger than my pressing. Im getting some progress on bench now and i put it down to switching between heavy close grips and wide grips. I think this kind of variation will have good carry over whilst keeping the weights going up. If you're always benching quite wide, change to a shoulder grip width and keep elbows tucked. Work on that for a while and your tricep strength will improve which is central to benching strength.

Wardie wrote:I'm probably stronger than him on the flyes though, which is a much more chest specific exercise

I have to say that DB Flyes are a poor exercise to compare on. Many people do them differently and in fact imo most DB Flyes are not performed correctly.

For a good & recent explanation of what I'm talking about look here (2) Functionally Correct DB Flies).

I actually do a more "extreme version" that Poliquin showed us. It's called an unrolling fly:
# This movement rolls from internal rotation to external rotation (eccentrically)
# start over the chest and lower to ear level. Only roll at the end
# keep the feet up because the pec attaches to the pubic symphysis via the fascial line.

Basically you start with DBs held with palms facing away (facing feet), then have a 5-10% bend at elbow at all times, then lower to ear level and by the time you reach there you've turned your hands so that your palms now face away from your feet, i.e. you unrolled them.

You should be able to preform 10% of what you can bench.

Trust me these are hard.

To be honest, I try and use a small weight for flyes which I'm comfortable with and can pause on in the negative phase of the rep. I find this much more effective than doing faster reps with higher weight. I try and do sets of 10 or more reps at the end of my sessions, I've never really focused on maxing out on them. Actually, I think they're the least important chest exercise I do.

I suppose that's a fair comment on the flyes, but I have fairly decent form on them and it feels like I have the chest strength but i'm probably failing on triceps and shoulders.

I'm going to keep with some slightly lower reps on the bench and switch skullcrushers to CGBP on my Upper B day.

When it gets to the final few weeks i'll probably just go 8x3 on the bench and see how that goes.

I know my strength isn't poor for my weight but it's not exactly good either, i'm competetive and I want these lifts to be stronger

Thinking about it a little more, because i'm relatively short and not very wide my shoulders really probably are quite limiting, i'm pretty weak at shoulder pressing movements

trust me, unrolling DB flyes will make you stronger. It strengthens the rarely hit subclavius muscle

I think learning to handle heavy(for me) flys over time is a good chest builder and helps with upper chest size and shape, including pressing strength.

Wardie wrote:I think it's irrelevant at this stage because although competing is in the back of my mind, I don't plan on it any time soon.

I think my strength is at the stage where technique isn't really the major issue, it's my actual strength that really needs work for the moment.

Just reading radical00s journey on MP, same age as me putting up 8x80KG on bench (I did 2x80KG last night)...

I'm probably stronger than him on the flyes though, which is a much more chest specific exercise so i've got a feeling that somewhere i'm lagging, and I think it's got to be my front delts or triceps (probably tris).

I would have to disagree again.. Getting a proper powerlifting technique on bench press takes time and feels different, if your actually serious about wanting to compete even if its next year, then i would get working on it asap. I don't understand your mentality of doing one thing at a time either, why not work on strength AND technique..


And if your VERY serious about competing i would probably consider changing your routine too.. you don't need to go that heavy on assistence work...

p.s i would work hard on some close grip bench pressing (shoulder width elbows tucked in). Its nearly always triceps and delts that are limiting factor on bench, chest doesn't come as much into it as you may think on a BB press.


Anyway of course do what you like, but if your interesting in powerlifting then thats my honest advice and i think alot of other powerlifters would agree..

Like I said, at the moment it's not a top priority but i'm thinking about it in the future (hence why i'm not really concerned with benching like a PLer at the moment, as my main priority really is still size for the time being).

I can't squat or deadlift at the moment either because of lower back problems (totally counts me out of powerlifting), but that does seem to be slowly getting better.

Yet another thing which convinced me it's my triceps and shoulders is the fact that I don't fail getting the bar off my chest usually, the sticking point is a little bit further when the weight shifts onto the triceps.

I'll give it a couple of weeks then switch the bench to 7x3 or 8x3 and get used to working with a little bit more weight, i'll keep the rest of the routine the same though.