Bin Laden dead?

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Bin Laden dead?

Postby kp1512 on Mon May 02, 2011 10:58 am

So Bin Laden was in Pakistan? REALLYY?

He gets killed just as the elections in the States are underway and leaders are being chosen for parties?

So he was 50 miles from a capital and noone knew?

How many stupid ppl will still beleive that this was normal?
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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby cleaver on Mon May 02, 2011 11:15 am

convenient when they have been caught with their pants down in Libya too ;)
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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby Alex on Mon May 02, 2011 7:10 pm

Something doesn't come across right by the way it's been reported. Also convenient that the body has been buried at sea so can't confirm the body is/was his. Would they not have captured him alive as well rather than just kill him as security there was alledged minimal?
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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby julesm on Mon May 02, 2011 7:25 pm

Would have mummified him and stuck him in a david blaine-esque box in times square for the world to behold for generations to comei
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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby Dtlv74 on Mon May 02, 2011 8:09 pm

I think part of the problem in knowing what really happened is in the only thing we know for sure - that politicians have used and continue to use terrorist issues as justification for dubious policies (usually economic), and also to use the conflict as a distraction from other political events (party in power low in the polls, so tells everyone they have to rally behind the troops and the government against an ever increasing terrorist threat).

Because they have a track record of doing this, whenever an event like this happens, which on the face of it looks like it a nice candidate as a set up, it's very easy to assume it is a set up... but it might actually not be.

Truth is we'll probably never know.
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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby Resurrected on Mon May 02, 2011 11:45 pm

Home › Blogs › Simon Barrow's blog › A death blow or shot in the arm for al-Qaida?
A death blow or shot in the arm for al-Qaida?

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's call on the Taliban and al-Qaida to renounce violence in the wake of the killing of Osama bin Laden is a statement from the heart of a world power which feels a renewed sense of vigour in the light of what is being called (oddly) a "policy success". But it does not strike one as arising from a very thoughtful, perceptive or accurate view of the world.

"We intend to go on killing for what we see as justice, and call on you to cease killing for what you see as justice" is not a particularly convincing message, nor one likely to elicit a positive response from people more usually characterised in American politics as straightforwardly "mad and bad". It's another case of "do as I say, not as I do", and it is grounded in the belief that "our" violence is moral, defensible and proportionate; something "they" see as a culpable delusion. And vice versa.

The central presumption of the Secretary of State's call is that a show of great US might will produce the fear necessary to turn the minds of enemies to conciliation. But what this leaves out of the calculation is that those using suicide bombs and small-scale terror attacks to advance their own causes are able to continue to operate in the shadows (it took ten years to "get" just one man), and are resourced by people far more willing to die for what they stand for than "we" are. These people believe in the rightness of their cause every bit as much at the US and its allies, and will see the killing of bin Laden and family members, as much as the killing of relatives of the (greatly detested) Colonel Gaddafi, as yet more evidence that the US employs the terror it denounces. The equations of hundreds of thousands dead in Afghanistan and Iraq will also be raised when 9/11 is discussed, and so the circular, numbing war of words, statistics and bombs is likely to continue.

That many close to Hillary Clinton are (in public, anyway) unable or unwilling to see any rationale or any logic in what their implacable enemies say is part of the problem rather than part of the solution. I am wholly against the idea of a global enforced caliphate (a suffusing idea in al-Qaida networks), I am wholly opposed to the totalitarian and misogynist rule of Taliban leaders, and more. But I am also opposed to the reign of Western bombs and guns and the notion of killing people to make them good and democratic. I am not attempting to map any kind of moral equivalence in this mess of conflicts. But I am pointing out that a simplistic 'good' versus 'evil' depiction of the situation is unsustainable - and profoundly dangerous. Binary simplifications capture the public imagination and feed what they purport to combat.

A core tragedy of the conflicts embroiling the Middle East and South Asia is that, irrespective of other rights and wrongs (and there are many), everyone seems convinced that the others "only understand force" and that the burden of resuming politics rather than death-diplomacy is firmly on the far side of the fence. Which is why the cycles of violence go on and on. Negotiation is seen as weakness, yet real politik shows it to be inescapable as well as desirable, fraught with dangers and fragile.

At present, the predominant "line" coming out of the US right is that Osama bin Laden's death is a "major blow" to al-Qaida, "fatally weakening" its resolve and tipping it into "terminal decline". This is vastly simplistic, as Hillary Clinton's more measured general response indicated. As Independent journalist and long-term observer Robert Fisk, who met bin Laden on three occasions, told Al Jazeera earlier today (2 May 2011), al-Qaida was in many respects a spent force anyway - still operationally capable to a significant extent (and to deadly effect, regrettably), but politically confounded by the huge 'Arab awakening' and on the way down.

In these circumstances, what the US may have done is not so much administer a death blow to al-Qaida, as to temporarily resuscitate its dispersed body politic in the act of destroying an actual (but also deeply symbolic) body. There are huge fears in Pakistan and elsewhere of another wave of suicide attacks, for example. Many, many more lives are likely to be lost if that happens. Let's hope and pray it doesn't, but not delude ourselves if it does.

However the reality is that the vast majority of Arab people and the vast majority of Muslims do not support al-Qaida - though some may occasionally express sympathy for acts carried out in its name out of opposition to US policy on the disastrous "my enemies enemy is - if not my friend - at least someone with whom I may periodically identify" principle.

Meanwhile, a radical shift in Western policy is needed to isolate dictators (rather than arming them); to support autonomous movements (rather than sending warplanes in at the earliest opportunity); to enable regional and national initiatives for change (rather than constantly trying to instal 'global' solutions from outside); to push Israel towards a resolution of the cancerous sore of injustice faced by the Palestinians; and much more.

One thing that should not be done is to promote the idea that the death of bin Laden is a "policy success". Ten years of bloodshed, slaughter and instability in Afghanistan and Iraq, now spreading to Pakistan, is hardly a success. Genuinely strong leaders need to acknowledge this and move on as well as forward. Otherwise al-Qaida and their like will only be sustained for longer than the wider political climate and Arab realignments would allow. Which would be an irony to outstrip even Secretary of State Clinton's (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13260274" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?).

Robert Fisk's thoughtful interview with Al Jazeera can be viewed here: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/asia/li ... killed-us.. onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.


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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby ollie on Tue May 03, 2011 1:29 pm

Alex wrote:Something doesn't come across right by the way it's been reported. Also convenient that the body has been buried at sea so can't confirm the body is/was his. Would they not have captured him alive as well rather than just kill him as security there was alledged minimal?


He was told to stand down, he refused so they shot him. The Navy Seals weren't going to take a 2nd chance with the most wanted man in the world. The body has to be buried within 24 hours to comply with Islamic law, and they buried him at sea to prevent any burial site from becoming a shrine (and because burial at sea is complicit with Islam in the circumstances). I expect some photographic evidence will appear at some point. Allegedly DNA testing has already been performed to confirm his identity.

If they had brought him back alive there would likely be multiple kidnappings of journalists, peace workers holding ransoms for his release/body brought back.

A lot of the UK press printed an old library photo that had been doctored to look like Bin Laden - but they've all apologised for this now.

Personally I think it's been dealt with in the best possible way - swiftly and stealthily - without a media circus parading images of his body all over the place. It's done, gone, move on, and good riddance.

You lot are so cynical!
Last edited by ollie on Tue May 03, 2011 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby Dtlv74 on Tue May 03, 2011 3:32 pm

I agree with Ollie that, assuming this was legit, they dealt with it in the best way that they could because of all the reasons mentioned above.

I also don't think however that this will do anything to lessen anti western islamic extremism - the root causes of the problems are still there and removing the figurehead won't do too much to change things either as most of the terrorist cells work independently of a leadership structure anyway.
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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby Alex on Tue May 03, 2011 8:38 pm

ollie wrote:
Alex wrote:Something doesn't come across right by the way it's been reported. Also convenient that the body has been buried at sea so can't confirm the body is/was his. Would they not have captured him alive as well rather than just kill him as security there was alledged minimal?


He was told to stand down, he refused so they shot him. The Navy Seals weren't going to take a 2nd chance with the most wanted man in the world. The body has to be buried within 24 hours to comply with Islamic law, and they buried him at sea to prevent any burial site from becoming a shrine (and because burial at sea is complicit with Islam in the circumstances). I expect some photographic evidence will appear at some point. Allegedly DNA testing has already been performed to confirm his identity.

If they had brought him back alive there would likely be multiple kidnappings of journalists, peace workers holding ransoms for his release/body brought back.

A lot of the UK press printed an old library photo that had been doctored to look like Bin Laden - but they've all apologised for this now.

Personally I think it's been dealt with in the best possible way - swiftly and stealthily - without a media circus parading images of his body all over the place. It's done, gone, move on, and good riddance.

You lot are so cynical!


Hmmm, but since when did the US ever respect anyones culture in the past? Seems rather convenient to me that there are reasons not to prove the incident has happened.
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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby Dtlv74 on Wed May 04, 2011 12:26 pm

Lets face it, just about the only group of people most of us would trust less than Al Queda are the motivations and intentions of US intelligence!

Have been a bit too distracted by my injury and feeling sorry for myself to follow this in great detail, but doing mod duties over on UKM and having to read all the posts about it there, so many people are convinced by conspiracy ideas... whether true or not, its certainly a sad reality that even our 'allies' are (justifiably IMO) not deemed trustworthy.
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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby simon m on Wed May 04, 2011 2:17 pm

Having a little knowledge about such things, I'd say that no one could have expected 9/11, it was certainly outside of all risk modelling I was aware of in the old days.

Having Bin Laden alive has never been good for the USA, and killing him was the right thing to do.

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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby kp1512 on Thu May 05, 2011 4:09 pm

Under the way it was done - there is a strong case for this to be a criminal act

Going into another state without authroisation, killing an unarmed man etc etc. Is it good he is dead? No. Is it good that he was caught alive and then sentenced in an Arab country to death - yes.

This will just be the start of another decade of serious revenge attacks IMHO - with some starting here no doubt due to the open policy we have of immigration and the types of people that dont like the UK.

Once again - the whole thing is just strange and stinks - but wait? Obama surged by 14 points over the past 3 days.......
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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby Spit on Thu May 05, 2011 6:17 pm

Conspiracy or not, it's the first time I've heard of anyone taking the Bins out on a Sunday.
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Re: Bin Laden dead?

Postby ollie on Thu May 05, 2011 11:37 pm

Jihad it coming for years. Talk Abottatobad place to hide.
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