Hi all!

I was advised to start taking ZMA at night, which I did for the first time last night. I've already read up quite a lot about it from here and elsewhere, but I don't think I was prepared for it!

I have never in my life slept well, and the sleep I have had has been terrible for various reasons. I was completely out of it! Only needed to get up once (as opposed to several) and am definitely finding it hard to wake up this morning.

So my first question is....

1. How does ZMA actually help you sleep like this?

My second question relates to the effects on things like testosterone, endurance, strength etc. I know there are always contradictory studies out there for most things, but as I am totally new to this I don't know what is generally accepted as the truth.

2. Does ZMA actually have any benefits for training?

For example, I found these two contradictory studies highlighted

Brilla and Conte, MSSE, vol 31, No 5, 1999 was a study conducted on twenty-seven football players at Western Washington University. The study compared twelve players supplementing with ZMA and fifteen players taking a placebo.

The ZMA group demonstrated statistically significant increases in the following areas:

Nutrients: 6-29% increase
Testosterone: 33% increase
IGF-1 (a growth factor) – maintained

The placebo groups had the following results:

Nutrients: 4-9% decrease
Testosterone: 10% decrease
IGF-1 (a growth factor) – 21% decrease

It is also worth mentioning that some, but not all quadriceps strength measurements indicated that ZMA group had a beneficial effect on muscle strength.

And

A 1999 study was undertaken on NCAA Football players during an 8 week spring training program. The control group was told to cease taking any nutritional supplements. Those who took the ZMA tablets showed greater increases in muscle strength. This study was funded by SNAC Systems Inc. (the patent holders) and one of the study's authors (Victor Conte) has equity in this company.

In 2004, a study funded by a research grant from Cytodyne (another supplement producing company) with 42 resistance trained males showed that ZMA supplementation had no significant effects on total and free testosterone, IGF-1, growth hormone, cortisol, the ratio of cortisol to testosterone, or muscle and liver enzymes in response to training. No significant effects were observed in changes in strength, upper or lower body muscle endurance, or anaerobic sprint capacity [3].

In another study done in 2006, a team of German scientists conducted a study on the effect of ZMA and testosterone levels in the body[4]. The result showed an increase in zinc secretions in urine making it much darker like blood, but no effect on the level of testosterone in the body.

I really am interested in the effects of ZMA, or even bespoke Zinc and Magnesium supplementation, because apparently it is something I have been severely lacking!

I suspect it's more the Zinc that aids sleep as I find supplementing with Zinc only leads to better sleep quality for me although contrary to this it's said that Magnesium aids sleep, not Zinc. Zinc also acts as an AI (Aromatise Inhibitor) and is about the best natural AI available and as such helps to keep natural Testosterone levels up or at least in check so for me this could be a partial reason for good quality of sleep.

If you're deficient in Zinc then this can result in a fall in Testosterone levels so while studies may be correct in that there are no increases in Testosterone levels you've got to ask the question how many of us are simply deficient and that the increases some studies show are in fact showing a return to normal levels. Either way I see it as beneficial.

If you then compound the immune system boosting benefits from both minerals then it's easy to see how it can help strength and endurance - if you feel better and are healthy then you're going to want to perform better and have the energy to do so as none is being taken away to help fight off colds etc.

In terms of seperate supplementing, which is the ideal, I'd look for 30mg-60mg Zinc in the morning spread across the first 2 meals of the day and away from dairy and 1g-2g Magnesium last thing at night.

Nice post Alex.

Have read several theories on ZMA and sleep, some linking the effects to Zinc, some to Magnesium and some to the Aspartate... so in all truth I couldn't tell you for certain just that it does work. I get very vivid dreams off ZMA and sleep very heavily, especially in the first fortnight or so of taking it after not doing so for a while.

Currently I'm taking zinc and magnesium seperately and don't get this - but I'm taking them much earlier in the day rather than pre bed so the 'non effect' on sleep may just be down to the timing. Am also taking them in the forms of magnesium oxide and zinc citrate (cheapo versions, lol) so that might well be another reason why they don't affect sleep for me as well as the timing and absence of aspartate.

I think the one thing to remember with ZMA is that as Alex basically says it's an optimiser but not strictly an ergogenic aid - it works brilliantly to help optimize zinc and mag levels if they are below what they should be, and in turn this helps optimise immunity, testosterone levels, blood pressure etc, but it won't grant a performance enhancing benefit above optimization.

Having said that if you are a very active person, and particularly if you engage in a lot of exercise, your need for both zinc and magnesium is significantly increased... is easily possible to 'sweat out' enough magnesium to effectively double your daily need if active. Frequent exercise also places increased demand on the immune system so either taking ZMA or both minerals seperately i think is a good idea. I certainly feel better when thaking them.

Alex, thanks so much for that. I actually understood it! Everything you are saying makes sense, and I can see how it would (as Det also concurs) be primarily an optimiser.

It's a good point about the level of activity as well Det, I am hoping that once my digestion improves and taking of the supplement my levels improve as I do think I've been seriously deficient in minerals, despite covering a lot of bases. It goes in but doesn't get absorbed.

I also started taking it to help with sleep because this is something I seriously struggle with. I just hope this grogginess doesn't last forever! Does anyone else struggle with this when using ZMA or similar?

(I will use what I have here then might try a different 'regime' as you guys have suggested here).

The grogginess you feel is common, it may be from the deeper sleep but I would blame it also on the Zinc. Zinc lowers cortisol (surprised anyone?) and it is cortisol that helps you wake-up in the morning.

I have the exact same "problem" with ZMA and another med that lowers cortisol.

Pingu - for me the grogginess tends to be most extreme when i first take the stuff after not having done so for a while, and eases off after a week to a fortnight, although the improvement in sleep continues so long as i'm on it.

Tartulho wrote:The grogginess you feel is common, it may be from the deeper sleep but I would blame it also on the Zinc. Zinc lowers cortisol (surprised anyone?) and it is cortisol that helps you wake-up in the morning.

I have the exact same "problem" with ZMA and another med that lowers cortisol.

That to me seems the most plausible explanation for the effect on sleep... had totally forgotten about zincs effect on cortisol... sometimes I'm pretty dense

Ah, thanks for pointing that out Tartulho. How easy things are when someone puts the missing pieces in for you!

Det...dense is certainly not a word I would use in relation to you!! Now me on the other hand... I'm just hoping the grogginess does wear off because the sleep benefits are so huge, coming from the land of shitty sleep it's an absolute godsend!

Dtlv74 wrote:That to me seems the most plausible explanation for the effect on sleep... had totally forgotten about zincs effect on cortisol... sometimes I'm pretty dense

You're not dense mate, you just suffer from too much info hanging on your head

Tartulho wrote:You're not dense mate, you just suffer from too much info hanging on your head

Brilliant! Now this IS how I would describe Det!

Pingu wrote:Ah, thanks for pointing that out Tartulho. How easy things are when someone puts the missing pieces in for you!

Det...dense is certainly not a word I would use in relation to you!! Now me on the other hand... I'm just hoping the grogginess does wear off because the sleep benefits are so huge, coming from the land of shitty sleep it's an absolute godsend!

Pingers, I find that if I take three caps of ZMA (the recommended dose on the bottle) I can be proper groggy in the morning, but that two caps gives me the benefits of restful sleep while still letting me get up for work. You're only a nipper so maybe try scaling the dose down a bit and see if there's a better happy medium for you.

Spit wrote:Pingers, I find that if I take three caps of ZMA (the recommended dose on the bottle) I can be proper groggy in the morning, but that two caps gives me the benefits of restful sleep while still letting me get up for work. You're only a nipper so maybe try scaling the dose down a bit and see if there's a better happy medium for you.

You crack me up Spit!

I am thinking I will give it a week on 2 capsules (my recommended) and see if the grogginess wears off a bit. If not, I'm going for the one cap because I feel more asleep than awake right now!