Training Questions

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Training Questions

Postby Pingu on Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:44 am

Just wondered if you could help me with a couple of training questions.

Background. I am needing to rethink my weight training sessions. I have done a lot of research to make them more swim specific, but need to focus a little bit more. The two main sets of muscles which are most important in swimming are the chest and the back.

Basically, I full body weight train twice a week. My plan is to hit the chest and back with two exercises each time, one for legs (we do a lot of pure kick work/work with fins which just zaps your legs) and my light rotator cuff strengthening work/diagonal cable pulls/face pulls (shoulders get enough of a hammering in the pool so I don't want to overdo it). Am leaving out pure biceps/triceps work because they will get hit by other compounds, and as I'm not body building I don't think I need to isolate them.

I'm good to go on the back. Got my plan for that, and it's already strong so am working on a good base.

However, chest is a whole other ball game. That really needs improving.

Now, my idea is to use DB Bench and Flyes, and dips. Have had to change gyms from where I was, and we don't have any BBs and the Smith would be too heavy for me to use even just the bar (possibly...but with my dodgy arm and without a spotter I'm not willing to risk trying it).

QUESTIONS

1. Are those 3 chest exercises OK do you think? If you know of any others do let me know.

2. Now, I know you can use a different degree of incline on the bench to hit different parts of your chest. I may be wrong, but the higher the incline doesn't that start to work the shoulders more? I want to hit my chest as much as I can, and save my shoulders as much as I can.

What do you think?

Sorry for asking yet another set of questions! :roll: :oops:
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Alex on Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:28 pm

I would say Shoulders are equally important for you as a Swimmer too, especially Rear Delts.

I think your choice on Chest exercises are fine but I'd maybe add in some body weight work as well like Press Ups or even look to invest in a set of TRX Straps for bodyweight Presses and Fly movements for variation. I would worry so much about angles but alternate between Flat and Incline work and perhaps think about useing a 2 week rotation of exercises instead a standard 1 week rotation; this adds variation for the muscle groups being works and also keeps things fresh and more interesting for yourself.

Pull Ups are great for Back development but some women can find it hard to do so if you have access to an Assisted Pull Up Machine then start on this. Again TRX is pretty useful here. It is quite costly but over time a worthy investment. They RRP at around £130 but can be had new on ebay for just under £100. Scott would be worth asking too as he trained a swimmer.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Dtlv74 on Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:30 pm

I think those exercises for chest, and the rest of your plan sounds very well reasoned. Since your main reason for training is sports specific rather than bodybuilding I'd say that your exercise selection needs to be as you have made it - focused on exercises that work the same muscles as you work when swimming and in the same way. I can see flyes being useful and possibly wide grip pullovers as a new one to try. Dips are a great exercise.

For incline presses, as soon as the degree of incline means bar is being lowered close to the clavicle, it becomes pretty much a half delts and half pecs exercise. A medium incline is the best angle for upper chest. If you want to use a pressing exercise to hit chest hardest, and triceps and delts least, then a slight decline is the way to go.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Rab on Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:33 pm

Strongly agree with Alex

I think attention should be paid to the rear delts. bent over cable or dumbell laterals or reverse peck deck will hit them individually
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Ader on Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:49 pm

I was thinking on rear delts that their main function is in pulling you arm/elbow out of the water, rather than functioning in delivering any power in the stroke itself, so what you need is the strength to overcome the water resistance to get your arm out fast - So that implies to me lightish weights and speed work rather than thinking of strength stuff.

The only provision on that would be perhaps if you swim with a wetsuit as then you have to overcome the resistance of the wetsuit (I know from experience how much that fatigues the rear delts on a long swim) , so more strength oriented stuff might help for that.

I think concentrating on the lats is obviously essential, but need to be careful you work them in teh ame plane you do when swimming as far as possible - So more towards straight arm pull downs.

Also I wonder whether some tricep working wouldn't go amiss - e.g. cable pushdowns, which woudl be quite close to what you're doing in the front crawl stroke?

On legs, my experience is that kicking always gets you right at the top of your quads and that muscle that goes over your hip on teh outside (no idea what it's called) so you need to make sure you're working that area rather than lower quads - Mind you if you're doing a lot of fin work that should do the trick - Do you add resistance by, for example, wearing baggy shorts, shirts and stuff - A reall killer but good for the strength :) As long as you don't mind looking a plonker swimming lengths half clothed and wearing fins and only using your legs :lol:

And RC work is I agree a very good idea.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Pingu on Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:53 pm

Thanks to all for their responses!

Alex wrote:I would say Shoulders are equally important for you as a Swimmer too, especially Rear Delts.


I'm not ignoring the shoulders, but am not hammering them in the gym as well as the pool. I do my rotator cuff work each time, and/or diagonal pulls (a good swimming specific exercise) and face pulls at each weights session. I also do rear delt work.... I have been using this exercise recently and have found it really suits me http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exercises.php?Name=Cable+Rope+Rear-Delt+Rows

Alex wrote:I think your choice on Chest exercises are fine but I'd maybe add in some body weight work as well like Press Ups or even look to invest in a set of TRX Straps for bodyweight Presses and Fly movements for variation. I would worry so much about angles but alternate between Flat and Incline work and perhaps think about useing a 2 week rotation of exercises instead a standard 1 week rotation; this adds variation for the muscle groups being works and also keeps things fresh and more interesting for yourself.


I do push ups occasionally but I do struggle with those given the poor ROM/nerve damage of my left arm. I can manage to do about 20 in one go but after that the nerve starts screaming and has a tendency to pop off the bone... not good. Not being wussy, I'm just a bit limited on certain things (although from not being able to do any push ups at all 6 months ago up to 20 is not bad going!). Certain movements just don't agree with it, and unfortunately pull ups with any decent weight is another!

I like the idea of improved rotation...will definitely bring that in, thank you!

If I can find the money at any stage for some TRX straps I will definitely give them a go...although that is not looking likely the way things are going :(

Bloody hell, seems like I'm being really negative with your comments Alex. I'm really not!!! I just am really limited when it comes to the left arm...and finances.

Dtlv74 wrote:I can see flyes being useful and possibly wide grip pullovers as a new one to try.


Thanks Det, I will look that one up! Always good to have a new tool to add to the kit!

Dtlv74 wrote:For incline presses, as soon as the degree of incline means bar is being lowered close to the clavicle, it becomes pretty much a half delts and half pecs exercise. A medium incline is the best angle for upper chest. If you want to use a pressing exercise to hit chest hardest, and triceps and delts least, then a slight decline is the way to go.


Ah, I see! Thanks for explaining that Det. Makes sense. I don't think we have a decline bench but the normal bench will probably decline a little bit if you take the hooky thing off (that's the technical term BTW!).
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Pingu on Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:00 pm

Ader wrote:I was thinking on rear delts that their main function is in pulling you arm/elbow out of the water, rather than functioning in delivering any power in the stroke itself, so what you need is the strength to overcome the water resistance to get your arm out fast - So that implies to me lightish weights and speed work rather than thinking of strength stuff.

The only provision on that would be perhaps if you swim with a wetsuit as then you have to overcome the resistance of the wetsuit (I know from experience how much that fatigues the rear delts on a long swim) , so more strength oriented stuff might help for that.

I think concentrating on the lats is obviously essential, but need to be careful you work them in teh ame plane you do when swimming as far as possible - So more towards straight arm pull downs.

Also I wonder whether some tricep working wouldn't go amiss - e.g. cable pushdowns, which woudl be quite close to what you're doing in the front crawl stroke?

On legs, my experience is that kicking always gets you right at the top of your quads and that muscle that goes over your hip on teh outside (no idea what it's called) so you need to make sure you're working that area rather than lower quads - Mind you if you're doing a lot of fin work that should do the trick - Do you add resistance by, for example, wearing baggy shorts, shirts and stuff - A reall killer but good for the strength :) As long as you don't mind looking a plonker swimming lengths half clothed and wearing fins and only using your legs :lol:

And RC work is I agree a very good idea.


Great stuff, thanks Ader.

As far as I can work out, your assessment of the function of rear delts is spot on. I do work on them but they aren't my main focus. I never swim in a wetsuit (even outdoors) so I don't need to worry about that.

Will look at the straight arm pulldowns...good point about it being in the same plane. I do try to on various things but for some reason forgot about that on the back!

I don't mind looking silly! LOL :lol: Have to go with what the coach does though so better not go in my PJs just yet! :D I still squat (albeit on a Smith as that's the only option I have now) so am still working on my quads.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Ader on Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:07 pm

Pingu wrote:
Dtlv74 wrote:I can see flyes being useful and possibly wide grip pullovers as a new one to try.


Thanks Det, I will look that one up! Always good to have a new tool to add to the kit!
My only warning on pullovers is to be careful - They don't suit everyone and can cause shoulder problems - I certainly can't do them with my dodgey shoulder - But they do seem like a great movement for swimming! Maybe keep the weight light and do highish reps?
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Alex on Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:18 pm

Pingu wrote:Bloody hell, seems like I'm being really negative with your comments Alex. I'm really not!!! I just am really limited when it comes to the left arm...and finances.

Not at all Maddie. We all have to work with what we have.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Pingu on Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:07 pm

Alex wrote:
Pingu wrote:Bloody hell, seems like I'm being really negative with your comments Alex. I'm really not!!! I just am really limited when it comes to the left arm...and finances.

Not at all Maddie. We all have to work with what we have.


Phew. Didn't want it to come across like that at all. I really appreciate your help. I push myself to the limit that I can do at all times, but I have to be so careful with the dodgy arm.

Ader wrote:My only warning on pullovers is to be careful - They don't suit everyone and can cause shoulder problems - I certainly can't do them with my dodgey shoulder - But they do seem like a great movement for swimming! Maybe keep the weight light and do highish reps?


Noted, thanks Ader. Will give them a try at light and high reps and see how I get on.

Was thinking about your assessment of the rear delts as well...again very much spot on as far as I can surmise from my limited knowledge. Certainly my focus is mainly on the chest (for freestyle) and the back (for backstroke - my stroke of preference) because your rotation and therefore power must come from those areas and the core rather than from the shoulders. Shoulders do get battered in the pool but mainly RSI type problems I think (like my tendonitis/impingement last year)...most of your strength should come from the chest/back muscle groups.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Ader on Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:13 pm

Ha - I'd really struggle with backstroke now, my shoudlers just ain't monile enough lol

had another thought re lat poull downs and cable pushdonws for tricep - Why not try combining into one movement sometimes - so a light weight (I woudl guess narrowish grip) and pull down slightly bent arms, row it in till teh bars at your chest then do a cable push down for teh triceps - very much mimicing a front crawl type stroke - Just an idea.

For back stroke why not something similar - Single arm standing sideways(ish) to the machine and pull down from overhead into the body and finish off with a push down so mimicing the backstroke movement.

May be worth experimenting with but the backstroke idea one may not be good for the shoulder impingement so may need to be a bit careful - Only one way to find out so keep it light at first if you do try it.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Alex on Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:21 pm

I used to do something similar with the top pulley on a cable station using 1 arm at a time; pulling across the body and then down but more breast stroke fashion.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Pingu on Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:24 pm

This is sounding fun.... and good to know you actually can do it. Excellent!

Did do it ;)
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Dtlv74 on Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:36 pm

Ader wrote:
Pingu wrote:
Dtlv74 wrote:I can see flyes being useful and possibly wide grip pullovers as a new one to try.


Thanks Det, I will look that one up! Always good to have a new tool to add to the kit!
My only warning on pullovers is to be careful - They don't suit everyone and can cause shoulder problems - I certainly can't do them with my dodgey shoulder - But they do seem like a great movement for swimming! Maybe keep the weight light and do highish reps?


Wide grip pullovers are possibly the very best exercise for the serratus muscles at the side of the abs and up into the armpit as well as working the chest surprisingly hard... but, as you say Adder, due to the position they put the shoulder joint in they need to be performed light with higher reps and no ego about lifting heavy. Could be wrong but for swimming I could see them providing quite a benefit due to the range of motion worked.

Is hard to find decent vids on this decidedly 'old school' exercise but here one for a decline variation - Decline Barbell Pullover
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Re: Training Questions

Postby health4ni on Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:40 pm

Rotator Cuff work done on both weights sessions would be good. Do different exercises each session. Only need 2 exercises with 3 working sets.

You are right: chest & back are the two most important. Yes, delts are important but not more so. And as you say, chest work and back work hits those. Also, if you do Face Pulls for RC work you'll hit the delts.

Plus, and very very important point is that you swim many hours a week. Your upper body, RC & delts get a hammering. Sometimes sports specific work isn't needed. Just getting damn strong with core lifts keeping it simple will work.

I think press-ups are a must; but only if they don't cause injury. I think you need to add a weight plate to your back if you can do 20. You need to aim for rep ranges between 6-12 I think.

You can make your own suspended "rings" very easily and cheaply. Google it ;)
Or you know what to ask for Xmas. I think that will be amazing for you. You can pair suspended press-ups with Inverted rows.

Do inverted rows on the smith machine at your gym. So good for you. Hits the Delts too.

imo no need to bother with arms.

If you can then just strengthen up the posterior chain. Deadlifts, RDLs, Some type of squat for quads and hips/glues (depending on squat variation).

DB Swings would be good. You could do them for higher reps, like 10-20 on each arm as a end of session cardio type blitz. Fat burning too.

Core work: stuff that your body must resist twisting, e.g. Pallof Presses. DB Pullins.

Pullovers can be useful for swimmers for sure. For you it would be best to use a machine though. This could be bad for your arm if you get it wrong with free weights.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Craig on Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:42 pm

Why did you change gyms?
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Re: Training Questions

Postby simon m on Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:45 pm

Pingu

What's more important to you for your sport: strength or endurance?
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Pingu on Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:08 pm

Dtlv74 wrote:Wide grip pullovers are possibly the very best exercise for the serratus muscles at the side of the abs and up into the armpit as well as working the chest surprisingly hard... but, as you say Adder, due to the position they put the shoulder joint in they need to be performed light with higher reps and no ego about lifting heavy. Could be wrong but for swimming I could see them providing quite a benefit due to the range of motion worked.

Is hard to find decent vids on this decidedly 'old school' exercise but here one for a decline variation - Decline Barbell Pullover


I have no ego when it comes to lifting thankfully...well, only if there is a silly wimpy girl in there (who I can beat with my little finger anyway) or an idiotic lad who think's he's all that...and I'm usually able to shame quite a few of them! :lol:

Thanks for the link Det. Will have a looksee. Am happy to give things a try and see how they sit with my biomechanics, wont rule it out without trying it!

health4ni wrote:Rotator Cuff work done on both weights sessions would be good. Do different exercises each session. Only need 2 exercises with 3 working sets.


I usually do 2 sets each of 20 reps cuban rotations and external rotations at each session.

health4ni wrote:Plus, and very very important point is that you swim many hours a week. Your upper body, RC & delts get a hammering. Sometimes sports specific work isn't needed. Just getting damn strong with core lifts keeping it simple will work.


I hadn't thought about it this way....hmmm...good point.

health4ni wrote:I think press-ups are a must; but only if they don't cause injury. I think you need to add a weight plate to your back if you can do 20. You need to aim for rep ranges between 6-12 I think.


I can do 20 and then that's me absolutely done! I might be able to do 3-4 working sets of a low number like 6, but it really does start to give my arm grief when doing a lot of them. I will have a play around and see how I can work them into training without doing damage. I may not be able to incorporate them as much as is ideal but I can certainly get a small element of them in.

health4ni wrote:Do inverted rows on the smith machine at your gym. So good for you. Hits the Delts too. imo no need to bother with arms. If you can then just strengthen up the posterior chain. Deadlifts, RDLs, Some type of squat for quads and hips/glues (depending on squat variation).


This I can do! Have just started learning how to do DLs (only with DBs at the moment). Gym has no BBs so it would be DBs or Smith. Always do squats, how can you not?! So much fun!

health4ni wrote:DB Swings would be good. You could do them for higher reps, like 10-20 on each arm as a end of session cardio type blitz. Fat burning too.


I love DB Swings! :D Now, would definitely have to do them only on a Sunday morning or I could see myself injuring someone in the busy gym!

health4ni wrote:Core work: stuff that your body must resist twisting, e.g. Pallof Presses. DB Pullins.


I have tried Googling Pullins before but haven't got anything useful. Does anyone have a link for these?

Craig wrote:Why did you change gyms?


I'd rather not say on open forum. Lets just say for my own sake I had to change or I wouldn't be going to the gym at all.

simon m wrote:Pingu, What's more important to you for your sport: strength or endurance?


Now? More strength I should think. The open water is not anywhere near as important to me now I have my pool swimming back. I will still do some of the long distance events, but they will be few and far between and will be for pure enjoyment only.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby simon m on Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:16 pm

If you're main focus is strength, then the exercise that Alex has outlined are excellent.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Pingu on Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:06 pm

simon m wrote:If you're main focus is strength, then the exercise that Alex has outlined are excellent.


I agree entirely! My only concern is how the arm will manage with the push ups and the pull ups which I know I have struggled with in the past. I wish I had finances for the bands, I have wanted to get some for quite some time but £100 is something I don't have.

Definitely going to incorporate the improved rotation as well.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby health4ni on Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:30 pm

If the arm is bad then don't do press-ups. Do flat DB presses & 20-45 deg presses. I don't really like flyes, but I think they're useful for swimmers. This will work.
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Pingu on Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:54 am

Just a reminder I'm not twittering on about the arm.... this is my ROM with the left one, plus I no longer have the channel through which the ulna nerve travels on the inside elbow area, which means it pops off the bone at times leaving me with pain as well as little or no feeling in my fingers. This is also why it tends to lock when I do pull ups, it really doesn't like that movement for some reason, weird because others aren't too bad.

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(By the way the picture is a year old, my arms look much better now! :lol:)

I can do push ups, just only if its feeling OK, and then not huge amounts of them. I never used to be able to do any but didn't want to be able to just say I couldn't do them so gave it a go!

So Alex and Scott - presses and flyes it is alternating! Thanks guys :D
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Re: Training Questions

Postby health4ni on Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:07 pm

http://health.msn.com/fitness/articlepa ... =100245518 - some great core exercises.

2nd one is a Pallof Press
3rd one is a Swiss Ball Jacknife.

There's always different names given to exercises :roll:
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Re: Training Questions

Postby Pingu on Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:10 pm

Great, thanks Scott! I have neglected core work and do need to start rectifying that.
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