That's what I mean. Shoulders need to be in front of the knees. Not loads though.

Thanks for the hint, looking at it now you are right i am setting up a bit too upright. Thanks!

Coop_de_Ville wrote:Thanks for the hint, looking at it now you are right i am setting up a bit too upright. Thanks!

But you move forward just before you lift - that's what I wanted to look at ...

^^ yes, CDV's technique is not terrible by any means. But I reckon he could go about 2" further forward just before lifting.

One other really important point: squeeze the bar off the floor slowly, then accelerate explosively when just about knee height.

Oly lifting requires the bar to be lifted slowly off the floor then accelerated up fast. You don't want to rip it up off the floor fast like deadlifting. There's 2 speeds really.

I've found that really helps.

Ader I'm sure will give some good advice too.

health4ni wrote:^^ yes, CDV's technique is not terrible by any means. But I reckon he could go about 2" further forward just before lifting.

One other really important point: squeeze the bar off the floor slowly, then accelerate explosively when just about knee height.

Oly lifting requires the bar to be lifted slowly off the floor then accelerated up fast. You don't want to rip it up off the floor fast like deadlifting. There's 2 speeds really.

I've found that really helps.

Ader I'm sure will give some good advice too.

I will when I've looked at - A lunch time job

OK here guess - Had a lunch time meeting so a bit later than planned – sorry it’s quite long as it’s sort of frame by frame so you know where I'm coming from – You may or may not agree so take from it what you want….

First your lift looks really good not a lot wrong – the following is therefore advanced critique if you like so stuff to finesse it – every little helps.

At 20s ish you set yourself up and it’s very upright – shoulder’s are behind the bar so not good. But then you pivot forward so your shoulder’s are forward and it’s a pretty good position. In fact at 22s the start position looks pretty damn good. I think, as H4Ni says they could do with being slightly forward (difficult to tell from the angle) but not a lot TBH. You could maybe do with arching your back slightly more.

Just before you lift you dip you head/neck and then rip it off the floor and your back rounds slightly. Again agree with H4Ni this is a bad trait – you need to ease it off the floor – Ripping it off makes you lose what was a good position (especially the back arch you can noticeably see the back’s rounded a bit) and you’re giving yourself less chance to accelerate at eth top – It’s difficult to accelerate when a) you’ve expended so much energy ripping it off the floor and b) the bars already moving fast. Top Oly lifters have a noticeably faster 2nd pull than the 1st pull (I think I have data at home I can post up if you’re interested). Also bear in mind what you’re training for: Sprinting/pushing – And the top part of the pull is closer to the movement you’ll be doing than the bottom part so it make sense to make sure you train that top pull rather than the bottom rip off the floor

After it leaves the floor you’re in a good position – Shoulder’s are forward of the bar and the bar is close to the shins – So really good – the only downer is the back’s rounded slightly but I reckon that’s a consequence of ripping it off the floor – get that right and at this stage your position would be bloody good.

As it goes past the need you go back onto your heels slightly and your shoulder’s drift back behind the bar. I would prefer to see you stay over the bar longer so your 2nd pull is more effective – This should partly self correct if you ease the bar off the floor – But you need to keep it in mind to stay over the bar longer. With the bar in front of you, you can push your hips toward the bar more to give a better drive rather than being behind the bar as you are and having to rely on pulling with your posterior chain

At the top of the pull (end of 23s ish) you’re in a nice position fully extend on your toes shoulder’s shrugged – maybe pulling back too much but not a lot TBH – A consequence of going back on your heels to much.

You seem to slow a bit at the top of the pull even though it looks good at the top in freeze frame – It’s difficult to see but I wonder if you’re pulling with your arms a bit rather than making sure they stay straight throughout the pull – If you pull with your arms they will bend slightly – But because biceps are a lot less strong than your back, legs & hips, these larger muscles then push you up – your arms straighten and at the extreme the bar momentarily isn’t moving – You’re wasting your leg, back & hip strength in straightening your arms rather than moving the bar.

My last comment is your feet width – can’t tells exactly how wide they are but start position looks ok – BUT as you go to catch the bar you jump way too wide imo and they almost look like you’ve gone toes in (I suspect you haven’t but it emphasizes my point) and as a result your knees go in a bit. Plus it throws you forward despite having pulled the bar back at the top, so you have to step forward.

You should think about a narrower jump and pointing your toes out slightly and making sure your knees go out over your toes. You may have to push yourself under the bar lower. But remember that a power clean is anything where you catch the bar with legs above parallel so going under it a bit is fine you don’t have to catch it as high as you do and a partial front squat won’t do you any harm.

Ok that was very long winded, but the nub of my advice is:

1. Set up with shoulders a bit more in front the bar
2. Ease the bar off the floor, don’t rip it – slow 1st pull, fast 2nd pull
3. Stay with shoulders over the bar for longer and in particular have shoulders ahead before the start of the 2nd pull so you can thrust your hips towards the bar for a better 2nd drive
4.Don’t jump your feed to wide, turn your toes out, knees over your toes and squat down a bit.

AND note These are a small adjustmnents to what you are doing becasue as I said it's already good.

ps - I don't do it right myself - it's certainly easier to criticse others than do it right oneself

Hey Coop, as always reading your journal makes me wanna go train. Evil pistols, so kudos for doing them. Congrats on the clean and the drop in BF%. 1% is a good drop.

Ader, I loved your critique of his technique. At some point I'm gonna have to hunt you down and get some help.

GymBunny wrote:Hey Coop, as always reading your journal makes me wanna go train. Evil pistols, so kudos for doing them. Congrats on the clean and the drop in BF%. 1% is a good drop.

Ader, I loved your critique of his technique. At some point I'm gonna have to hunt you down and get some help.

you'll never find me... the elusive lesser spotted Ader

Ader thats a spot on critique there! I agree with everything you have pointed out especially with training the second pull as it is more related to my discipline. Thanks I appreciate it a lot!

I think that the power clean may be more effective in the coming weeks before trials in July and September than the deadlift due to its explosive nature even at maximal lifts. Would you all agree that this would probably be the best thing to train (major lift wise) to develop both power and strength?

GB thanks for the support I am quite pleased with it too! Especially as I now weigh around 98kg so have put on 3kgs of lean body mass.

3kg of lean body mass? Fantastic. You might have mentioned it in the previous post but over what period ot time was the BF% reduction?

I weighed 95kg about 2 months ago and my body fat was around 8.3% so since then I have dropped to 7.2% and increased weight to 97.8kg.

Coop_de_Ville wrote:Ader thats a spot on critique there! I agree with everything you have pointed out especially with training the second pull as it is more related to my discipline. Thanks I appreciate it a lot!

I think that the power clean may be more effective in the coming weeks before trials in July and September than the deadlift due to its explosive nature even at maximal lifts. Would you all agree that this would probably be the best thing to train (major lift wise) to develop both power and strength?

I'm not the best person to answer this - H4Ni may be good thoughand I suspect Ash knows quite a bit in this rea too, but my take nevertheless...

To start, strength and power are quite different animals - you can be strong but not 'powerful' - In fact powerlifting for example is badly named it's really strength lifting - It's slow movements - great for me as an oldy

Generally, from what I've seen/read, strength training for sports (such as yours) has to be done in phases - Pure strength off season to increase 1RM - But since you need speed you have to start training that speed more and the pur strength aspect less as you get nearer and nearer competition.

In particular you need to decrease the initial time it tales your muscles to kick in (forget what it's called but from when you start to think about doing something to the time your muscle actually starts to do what you want i.e. an inital time lag) So you need to rely less on things like squats/DLs and use things like power cleans more - But also very importantly thinsgs like plyometrics which help reduce that 'lag'. I have seen arguments against parachute trining and the like for this reason as it doesn't help reduce this lag as well as other stuff it's too much like strength triaing in nature an trains you to work 'slow'.

So yes I think powercleans will be better than DL's as you get nearer competition/trials - But plyometrics and more bodyweight stuf - Short sprints I would have thought would be very benficial - I am sure your time 'off the blocks' is crucial and the more you can reduce that the better!

Sorry I haven't been fully following teh journal but i think you're doing all that already so nothing new there I suspect

Oh... and of course sprint drills very important too

Just a thought:
Every lift can be done explosively, not just the oly lifts. The oly lifts force you to be explosive for sure, but you can do deads explosively, you just have to lower the weight.

Rilla wrote:Just a thought:
Every lift can be done explosively, not just the oly lifts. The oly lifts force you to be explosive for sure, but you can do deads explosively, you just have to lower the weight.

Good point!

But you do try to lift explosively on deadlifts anyway. It's just when it's heavy and you have to maintain form you'll come up slower. Doesn't mean you're not trying to come up fast & explosive though.

Some sprint coaches prefer deadlifts over Oly because you have to exert the force for longer. Other sprint coaches recommend doing neither.

Both imo. IF the athlete can perform them correctly; esp Oly lifts.

If I saw an athlete just once a week for strength training and only for 3 months say then I wouldn't bother trying to get an Oly lift nailed if he/she couldn't do them (or was very poor). It is all individual.

You need to be strong to be fast.

health4ni wrote:Both imo. IF the athlete can perform them correctly; esp Oly lifts.

If I saw an athlete just once a week for strength training and only for 3 months say then I wouldn't bother trying to get an Oly lift nailed if he/she couldn't do them (or was very poor). It is all individual.

You need to be strong to be fast.

And CDV has good form on those Oly lifts so they'll work for him

I can understand why some coaches don't want to use them as their functionality is far from 100% transfer to sports (other than Oly lifting of course) And sometimes there's too much enphasis on using Oly lifts as a be all and end all which they ain't - But I think sometimes not using them is because the coach can't teach them properly and/or had never seen a good lift done so doesn't realise how explosive they are when done right -A slightly lazy approach imo.

The problem with doing a full power clean as an assistance exercise is that the real benefit is often in the pull- not the dip under and catch - BUT if you just do clean pulls you're never ever as explosive at the top- Nothing like knowing you have to catch the weight to make you really pull at the top - A bit of a catch 22!

One thng I do like about power cleans - especially if you do 3-5 reps - IS how much oxygen debt they put you into - Which is not a bad thing to be doing when training for sprints I would think And trying to get that last rep when you're gasping and your muscles don't want to go fast is good psycholigical training too

Sorry CDV we seem to be hijacking your thread

I'm sure he doesn't mind.

I def think that Oly lifts are over-used. They have their place for sure. But there's so much more that can be done. And a lot that is very old school. Body weight stuff is great. I destroyed two clients today with a little 12min circuit at the end; DB Pullins -> Bear Crawls -> DB Front Squats - only 40ish secs but man they hurt... and get your breathing hard!

I'm sure he doesn't mind.

I def think that Oly lifts are over-used.

Sounds like we both agree on this The key is to match teh exercises you use to the results you want - I donlt get over reliant on one thing - Sometimes a change is like a kick up the ass and does more good than keeping at the same old thing - But so close to his trials I'd be careful about any drastic change and would stick to what you know/like - No point risking injury from doing something new.

health4ni wrote:They have their place for sure. But there's so much more that can be done. And a lot that is very old school. Body weight stuff is great. I destroyed two clients today with a little 12min circuit at the end; DB Pullins -> Bear Crawls -> DB Front Squats - only 40ish secs but man they hurt... and get your breathing hard!

:lol Old school - Like it

I still think speed/start/sprint drills should start to tale precedence as CDV gets closer to the trials - Too much continued heavy work (and compared to sprinting the leg speed in a power clean is quite slow I reckon) will keep yu slow - You need to get speed speed speed

Ader wrote:I still think speed/start/sprint drills should start to tale precedence as CDV gets closer to the trials - Too much continued heavy work (and compared to sprinting the leg speed in a power clean is quite slow I reckon) will keep yu slow - You need to get speed speed speed

Sorry a slight rethink - For the trials do you have to push a sled or anything or just do a sprint? If the former then leg speed will be slower and so strength work should perhaps be higher proportion than if you have to just do a sprint - But even if you are pushing a sled, geting increased leg speed by doing drills etc. will be a good thing - Difficult call imo

One of the best things for CDV is a Prowler. I know CDV says he has access to one. Load it up and push it.