On UK muscle one of the shepherds( PScarb) and now lots of the sheep have now decided that overtraining does not exist and if you feel it then you must be undereating .

Personally I think its total toss and is becoming almost an accepted law of BB as the sheep refuse to think for themselves


Anyone agree with the shepherd and his sheep ??

Gym-pig wrote:On UK muscle one of the shepherds( PScarb) and now lots of the sheep have now decided that overtraining does not exist and if you feel it then you must be undereating .

Personally I think its total toss and is becoming almost an accepted law of BB as the sheep refuse to think for themselves


Anyone agree with the shepherd and his sheep ??

very simple, and Im seeing similar things on the US boards where someone is saying similar things which cant go unchallenged if we are to learn - as there could be a potential that maybe some of this is correct? However

You have 100 units in the body [for example]

The 100 units comprises of

CNS [and Brain]
Muscles
Organs
Recovery Ability
Nutrition

Need there even be anything more said?

To suggest you can train as much as one wants and over eat does not make sense in the slightest. The body and its ability are limited in what it can do [nutritional uptake, enzyme regulation, yada yada yada]

thats my throught process on this...

Additionally we are all different - I can train shoulders 2-3 times a week and make good progress, whereas someone else cant. But I cannot train chest more than once a week if I want to progress.....yet others can.

could be wrong though

Pscarb does get results which is why he is so popular for people prepping for comps. He doesn't baby people either.

I do think overtraining is possible, and 1 person in particular that is prepping ATM springs to mind. That said, so many people throw the term around I think it's become so overused we now have this recoil of 'no such thing as overtraining".

In general IMO professional athletes are more in danger of overtraining that the recreational gym trainer. People are very different too, so Det for e.g. has to be careful to keep his calories up, whereas I frequently jawdrop at the amount of training Alex does which would seriously debilitate a lot of other athletes. Apples and Oranges.

I like KPs thoughts on the subject and am inclined to agree.

I think this is subjective and will vary in individuals and nature of training.

I used to be in the under eating camp and I personally still think one can hit weights 5 days a week heavy, over a prolonged period of time and make steady gains if adequate nutrition and rest are in place. Once you add CV into the equation then it becomes harder and one form of training must give way for the other in a similar model to the one KP mentions but breaking down purely for training and that you have 100 units which you can distribute between weights and CV/Conditioning work. You can extend this slightly with clever supplementation or AAS usage to give say 110 units but the principle remains.

Age will also be a factor.

In conclusion there's definately a finite volume of training one can do before fatigue kicks in but clearly there are factors in place that affect what this is. Personally I would say that most BBer's would struggle to exceed this amount of volume with everything in place.

Under recovery will come before over training.

Nobody can be sure that they are over trained without blood tests.

I have heard this before from a bodybuilder when I asked about how he coped with possible over-reaching, he just said as long as I keep protein really high that wont happen. I chose not to convince him otherwise due to his previous statement.....

However overtraining is hard to get, takes months if not years of excessive training. Why endurance sports are known for it. Over-reaching is more short term and could occur if you did a ridiculous programme as well as a job, not eating properly and not resting. But in most gym go-ers this is never going to happen.

Gym-pig wrote:On UK muscle one of the shepherds( PScarb) and now lots of the sheep have now decided that overtraining does not exist and if you feel it then you must be undereating .

LOL Some of you bodybuilders seriously come up with some funny shit now and again with all this bro science.

Coop_de_Ville wrote:However overtraining is hard to get, takes months if not years of excessive training. Why endurance sports are known for it. Over-reaching is more short term and could occur if you did a ridiculous programme as well as a job, not eating properly and not resting. But in most gym go-ers this is never going to happen.

I think you make a really good point. I used to distance run and it's definitely possible to overtrain. You know it because you go for a run one morning and you can't even complete 1 out of a planned 12 miles. It hits you very suddenly. You find yourself completely exhausted and at need at least a week off entirely getting lots of sleep and eating plenty before you can go back to it. I used to undereat too (was 63kg at one point, am now 87kg) which certainly wouldn't have helped.

It may be that it's just way more apparent in endurance sports though - and perhaps it's a different kind of overtraining involving different systems (i.e. more emphasis on the CNS in weightlifting). If I've ever been overtrained whilst lifting, I've recovered from it much more quickly. I'd also say that those times have been when I've been dieting hard, so perhaps he has a point?

he doesnt really have a point because hes bascially saying that you can train as often as you want, do what you what you want whenever, providing you eat enough food. Any one with a couple of brain cells knocking about knows why the repair and adaptation process in the body is not as simple as just stuffing your face.

Edit: Decided to edit out this bit as prob a little harsh and off-topic...... I do think alot of people have bad influences on others on there though,,

If you keep pushing out grinding slow reps near your rep max for a perticular weight you will tax the CNS hard enough to stall progress. The CNS is much more sensitive than muscular recovery.


Food will do feck all for CNS recovery.
So will most AAS.


People not on AAS need less volume, lower frequency, lower reps and to be even more careful about how many times they take a muscle to failure per week. However much food they eat.

Still everyone who gets results has their own brand of BS (me included) so I'll not slag Paul off.

Craig wrote:If you keep pushing out grinding slow reps near your rep max for a perticular weight you will tax the CNS hard enough to stall progress. The CNS is much more sensitive than muscular recovery.


Food will do feck all for CNS recovery.
So will most AAS.


People not on AAS need less volume, lower frequency, lower reps and to be even more careful about how many times they take a muscle to failure per week. However much food they eat.

Still everyone who gets results has their own brand of BS (me included) so I'll not slag Paul off.

Some very good points being made by everyone here. But I do feel the need to agree with Craig and say "let's not slag Paul off people". He is very well respected and he does get results. We can all disagree until cows turn green, but let's keep it polite.

I think you make a really good point. I used to distance run and it's definitely possible to overtrain. You know it because you go for a run one morning and you can't even complete 1 out of a planned 12 miles. It hits you very suddenly. You find yourself completely exhausted and at need at least a week off entirely getting lots of sleep and eating plenty before you can go back to it. I used to undereat too (was 63kg at one point, am now 87kg) which certainly wouldn't have helped.

Yes definitely, from my rowing and cycling days I used to really suffer from exactly what you have just said. I think it must be to do with the volume and the fact that endurance work leaves your immune system raped and any kind of URTI would be a threat.

For sure PScarb is no fool.

I tend to think les about overtraining nowadays as I think its banded to much...and more about doing a quantity of work that is most productive.

i.e. - there is a level top be struck between the quantity of work you do and whether the outcome is;

* less than your maximum
* bang on the maximum
* slightly more than the maximum but still gets you the result
* beyond it where it will ACTUALLY make you regress.

This can be applied to any goal in BB I think.

I tend to go with the third choice now. A bit more training and volume than I used to and make sure I get the job done even if slightly more than is ACTUALLY required for the desired result....but at least I know I have the job done without fear of regress

I think most people are very lazy in the gym and actually most undertrain.

I certainly agree with Craig's view on CNS, and Alex's about casrdio and sport, but for bodybuilding, subject to adequate rest, nutrition and sensible training it's very hard to do unless you have a mental training partner and you're heavyily into HIT with Static Holds, Negatives, Pre Exhaust etc.

simon m wrote:I think most people are very lazy in the gym and actually most undertrain.

I certainly agree with Craig's view on CNS, and Alex's about casrdio and sport, but for bodybuilding, subject to adequate rest, nutrition and sensible training it's very hard to do unless you have a mental training partner and you're heavyily into HIT with Static Holds, Negatives, Pre Exhaust etc.

Thats how we all train up north you southern pansie

Gym-pig wrote:

simon m wrote:I think most people are very lazy in the gym and actually most undertrain.

I certainly agree with Craig's view on CNS, and Alex's about casrdio and sport, but for bodybuilding, subject to adequate rest, nutrition and sensible training it's very hard to do unless you have a mental training partner and you're heavyily into HIT with Static Holds, Negatives, Pre Exhaust etc.

Thats how we all train up north you southern pansie

Of course you do, then you go home and beat your wives

is that why they wear wife beaters?

As someone who often does low rep high weights, I can testify that imo overtraining is possible - Although how you define that is another thing.

When I get to that point I normally think "bugger I've caught a bug and feel awful" Now is that overtraining? Possibly - Or have I just fried myself and made myself susceptible to attack by an 'actual' bug? Either way I reckon that's 'overtraining' in a broad sense.

Pretty sure I've hit overtraining when I sued to do the middle distance & long distance stuff too - As Ollie says - your energy levels just sudenly deplete and you can't swim/cycle/run for shit.

EDIT: re middle/long distance - Mind you I only had that on a couple of rare occassions - I normally got injured well before I got to that stage

Ader wrote:Pretty sure I've hit overtraining when I used to do the middle distance & long distance stuff too - As Ollie says - your energy levels just sudenly deplete and you can't swim/cycle/run for shit.

Yup. This is a good description Ader. I just completely fall apart, get colds and can't swim any better than a brick. It really is sudden as well. I tend to get really despondent as well, tired, cranky and generally really upset at how badly things are going. When I get to the point I don't want to train I know there is definitely something wrong, because of how much I love my swimming.

Excuse the pedantry, but there's some confusion over 'overtraining' vs simple overreaching here. Overtraining is a recognised medical condition but incredibly hard to achieve, it mostly hits Olympic athletes once the Games are over, you need to be training at that sort of level. It takes several months to recover from, similar to glandular fever.

Overreaching on the other hand we've all done, and is what you're all describing above. I've made some of my best gains by pushing it hard in the gym for three or four consecutive days and the backing off and eating a shed load of food.


Again, sorry to be an arse, but if any of you are planning to argue the point with this dude then you may as well have your facts straight!

Not all of us...

I wouldn't class 3-4 days straight hard training over training or reaching either, just normality.

Alex wrote:Not all of us...

I wouldn't class 3-4 days straight hard training over training or reaching either, just normality.

Depends how you're doing it though- I know if I do four decent full-body sessions from Mon-Thurs then by Friday I'm gagging for a breather. If you're on a split then fair enough, that'll change things: and as Lys pointed out above you obviously have a very high workload capacity (which I'm sure you've at least partly earned through hard work, and forcing your body to adapt to a punishing schedule).

But you're ready to go again the following week, right?

If so then you're in the realms of normal training.

complex topic this.

the term 'overtraining' is used to describe so many things, and typically each factor has a different relationship to training and rest.

CNS takes different times to recover depending on how close to failure and also how close to 1RM you are lifting, inflammation responds in a more exaggerated way to negatives and slower heavy reps but also to training a bodypart too frequently (sore elbows from hitting triceps three workouts (chest/delts/arms) out of a split is a good example of loaclised overtrainnig when the whole body may well be not close to overtraining), then there's lack of calories which can slow down the whole body recovery response which i think is probably what Pscarb is on about.

Once optimally fed though, of course you can overtrain if you overreach for a prolonged period. in the short term overreaching is fine, and if followed by a short back off is probably the most effective way overall to train... but no amount of food will allow continual overreaching, as the positive adaptations to overreaching only happen when the body gets a rest as well. If you just keep going at it as hard as you can without backing off, allostatic load becomes too great and everthing falls apart.

if food/kcals was the only limiting factor to recovery then surely the optimum would be a 50,000 kcals plus per day diet, training with max lifts to failure for multiple hours everyday. Clearly people aren't doing this becuase it isn't practical and doesn't work. When people bulk where do the extra calories go? fat. Do those extra calories improve rate of recovery? only compared to an inadequate caloric intake, not compared to a decent diet.