i always like to have a read around other boards and stuff (beats oneself with cactus) but i find it interesting what people discuss etc reading avant forums this morning, i came across this study somebody posted:

J Appl Physiol 63: 252-256, 1987;

Journal of Applied Physiology, Vol 63, Issue 1 252-256, Copyright © 1987 by American Physiological Society

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Eccentric exercise-induced muscle damage impairs muscle glycogen repletion
K. P. O'Reilly, M. J. Warhol, R. A. Fielding, W. R. Frontera, C. N. Meredith and W. J. Evans


Five healthy untrained young male subjects were studied before, immediately after, and 10 days after a 45-min bout of eccentric exercise on a cycle ergometer (201 W). The subjects were sedentary at all other times and consumed a eucaloric meat-free diet. Needle biopsies of the vastus lateralis muscle were examined for intracellular damage and glycogen content. Immediately after exercise, muscle samples showed myofibrillar tearing and edema. At 10 days, there was myofibrillar necrosis, inflammatory cell infiltration, and no evidence of myofibrillar regeneration. Glycogen utilization during the exercise bout was 33 mmol glycosyl units/kg muscle, consistent with the metabolic intensity of 44% of maximal O2 uptake; however, the significant glycogen use by type II fibers contrasted with concentric exercise performed at this intensity. At 10 days after exercise, muscle glycogen was still depleted, in both type I and II fibers. It is possible that the alterations in muscle ultrastructures were related to the lack of repletion of muscle glycogen. Damage produced by eccentric exercise was more persistent than previously reported, indicating that more than 10 days may be necessary for recovery of muscle ultrastructure and carbohydrate reserves.

granted the study is 21 yrs old- but interesting nonetheless

This says to me that you need to eat meat and do studies on trained people!

KP and I got into a quite heated debate with NU and some others on the MP site about the effect of prolonged training and the bodies adaptation process.

The best example of this is that high Carnosine levels are only found in trained athletes and by taking beta alaine you can increase those levels in unison with your training.

So when I read studies on untrained people, I tend to ignore them!

As has been pointed out the study isn't representative ...but it has been known for many years that eccentric emphasis training blunts the insulin sensitivity of muscle cells. In untrained individuals it's not surprising that this would be more pronounced.

Interesting all the same.

sorry guys that was a bit of a teaser to elicit the untrained subjects- bring on the next study lifted from avant

Asp, Sven, Thomas Rohde, and Erik A. Richter. Impaired muscle glycogen resynthesis after a marathon is not caused by decreased muscle GLUT-4 content. J. Appl. Physiol. 83(5): 1482-1485, 1997.Our purpose was to investigate whether the slow rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis after a competitive marathon is associated with a decrease in the total muscle content of the muscle glucose transporter (GLUT-4). Seven well-trained marathon runners participated in the study, and muscle biopsies were obtained from the lateral head of the gastrocnemius muscle before, immediately after, and 1, 2, and 7 days after the marathon, as were venous blood samples. Muscle GLUT-4 content was unaltered over the experimental period. Muscle glycogen concentration was 758 ± 53 mmol/kg dry weight before the marathon and decreased to 148 ± 39 mmol/kg dry weight immediately afterward. Despite a carbohydrate-rich diet (containing at least 7 g carbohydrate · kg body mass1 · day1), the muscle glycogen concentration remained 30% lower than before-race values 2 days after the race, whereas it had returned to before-race levels 7 days after the race. We conclude that the total GLUT-4 protein content is unaltered in the lateral gastrocnemius after a competitive marathon and that the slow recovery of muscle glycogen after the race apparently involves factors other than changes in the total content of this protein.

Free full text: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/f ... 482?ck=nck

You tease me Sir.

So correct me if I'm wrong, runner deplete their glycogen when running? What would be interested is to see how qucik the recovery is if they carb loaded during the race.

obviously not applicable to this boards masses (barring trichick) unless some of us putting the odd 26miler in as cardio.
it would be nice to have a definitve answer in the amount of optimal CHO required, but it'd never be true due to idiosyncratic responses.
simon your comments would have been a great addition/extension to the study- forgive me, i know defecating is permissable - but is taking on energy drinks allowed?
i think peri is where its at

julesm wrote:obviously not applicable to this boards masses (barring trichick) unless some of us putting the odd 26miler in as cardio.
it would be nice to have a definitve answer in the amount of optimal CHO required, but it'd never be true due to idiosyncratic responses.
simon your comments would have been a great addition/extension to the study- forgive me, i know defecating is permissable - but is taking on energy drinks allowed?
i think peri is where its at

Yes it is, you can take carbs whilst running and in fact most runner buy little gel packs. So it would be interesting to see what happens when these are brought into the equation.