You can read the full article here for free. Good read.

*sigh* I hate being a scientific thicko sometimes. That's a foreign language to me!! Would have been really interesting had I the knowledge to comprehend it.

Thanks for posting it though GB.

which is why when people recommend HIIT and talk about EPOC - it kind of gets fundamentally flawed. Whereas if you enter SS cardio with a low blood sugar count you actually end up burining fat during the period itself [if its long enough]
For those already sub 10% HIIT is good - but for the heavier lot - I say the jury is still out.

Pingu- I wouldn't feel bad about it, it is a hell of a lot of information to take in for the fitness professional.

To make a very long story short the take home message is that insulin promotes fat storage and inhibits lipolysis.

To put it into practice typically anyone who controls their insulin by keeping their blood sugar low is going to lose fat faster than those who don't. Those who have high insulin levels can be identified using a standard glucometer or by comparing suprailiac and subscapular skinfold measurements to your tricep reading.

To regulate insulin for fat loss purposes you can;
- Restrict carbohydrate intake
- Increase intake of proteins and fats
- Increase fibre intake
- Eat more regularly
- Decrease consumption of other substances which result in insulin up-regulation such as certain artificial sweeteners (some evidence has been provided to show that these can stimulate insulin production as well)

Having high blood sugar levels is a stress on the body and will result in cortisol release and subsequent fat storage in other areas. This can be an extremely complex topic but you do not to read into it too much.

My typical approach to simplify this is to eat foods that we are used to eating, it is argued back and forth but the human gene takes a very long time to evolve. Some people (myself included) do not respond well to grains in general and struggle to digest them. If your body cannot digest it there will obviously be a stress response which more often than not is going to result in fat storage. Informal tests for carbohydrate tolerance can be skinfold tests weekly with varied carb intake or simply eating a meal that is higher in refined carbohydrates to usually ellicit a strong insulin response and see how you feel an hour later. Even gluten free lower GI grains will put me to sleep an hour after eating them unless I eat an extremely small portion.

I hope this helps.

It does! Thank you!

Just to confuse matters worse I'm not sure I 100% agree that insulin inhibits lipolysis. Insulin is a storage hormone. Now if you dont train at all, or hard enough then yes consuming sugars etc will increase fat storage. However if you train hard, then insulin will store macros into muscle - where its needed.

One of my meals, everyday, is simply lean protein and sugar. This can be from bananas or simply anything with sugar. It has to be sugar. Does this inhibit fat loss? doesnt seem to.

Of course if you dont train, or dont train hard - for whatever reason - low gi is where its at. But for someone who trains very hard the difference in GI between basmati rice, white rice, brown bread etc is neglible. Regardless of what the numbers say.

This is one of those areas where the research says one thing, and empirical evidence says slightly different.

Mike wrote:Just to confuse matters worse I'm not sure I 100% agree that insulin inhibits lipolysis. Insulin is a storage hormone. Now if you dont train at all, or hard enough then yes consuming sugars etc will increase fat storage. However if you train hard, then insulin will store macros into muscle - where its needed.

One of my meals, everyday, is simply lean protein and sugar. This can be from bananas or simply anything with sugar. It has to be sugar. Does this inhibit fat loss? doesnt seem to.

Of course if you dont train, or dont train hard - for whatever reason - low gi is where its at. But for someone who trains very hard the difference in GI between basmati rice, white rice, brown bread etc is neglible. Regardless of what the numbers say.

This is one of those areas where the research says one thing, and empirical evidence says slightly different.

Mike - I think its a given it does? If insulin is present - there is glucose in the blood - which makes it a bodies inherent fuel source which would stop stored fat oxidation.

I agree fully with kp. Indeed you could argue that if you time your carbohydrates well for muscle building purposes then an increase in lean tissue will result in an increase in metabolic rate and a decrease in fat mass over time.

Consuming lean protein with a banana is hardly a high gi meal and wouldn't contribute to high circulating blood sugar for any considerable period of time. If you were using yourself as an example of carbohydrates not inhibiting fat loss then you would have to be a bit more obvious than eating a banana and saying it doesn't alter anything.

I can personally testify that if I personally eat a higher carb diet consisting of higher GI grains then I store fat very quickly on it and very few clients I have trained haven't lost fat faster when they reduced their carb intake.

BDCC wrote:Pingu- I wouldn't feel bad about it, it is a hell of a lot of information to take in for the fitness professional.

To make a very long story short the take home message is that insulin promotes fat storage and inhibits lipolysis.

To put it into practice typically anyone who controls their insulin by keeping their blood sugar low is going to lose fat faster than those who don't. Those who have high insulin levels can be identified using a standard glucometer or by comparing suprailiac and subscapular skinfold measurements to your tricep reading.

To regulate insulin for fat loss purposes you can;
- Restrict carbohydrate intake
- Increase intake of proteins and fats
- Increase fibre intake
- Eat more regularly
- Decrease consumption of other substances which result in insulin up-regulation such as certain artificial sweeteners (some evidence has been provided to show that these can stimulate insulin production as well)

Having high blood sugar levels is a stress on the body and will result in cortisol release and subsequent fat storage in other areas. This can be an extremely complex topic but you do not to read into it too much.

My typical approach to simplify this is to eat foods that we are used to eating, it is argued back and forth but the human gene takes a very long time to evolve. Some people (myself included) do not respond well to grains in general and struggle to digest them. If your body cannot digest it there will obviously be a stress response which more often than not is going to result in fat storage. Informal tests for carbohydrate tolerance can be skinfold tests weekly with varied carb intake or simply eating a meal that is higher in refined carbohydrates to usually ellicit a strong insulin response and see how you feel an hour later. Even gluten free lower GI grains will put me to sleep an hour after eating them unless I eat an extremely small portion.

I hope this helps.

I love you so much lol..

kp1512 wrote:

Mike wrote:Just to confuse matters worse I'm not sure I 100% agree that insulin inhibits lipolysis. Insulin is a storage hormone. Now if you dont train at all, or hard enough then yes consuming sugars etc will increase fat storage. However if you train hard, then insulin will store macros into muscle - where its needed.

One of my meals, everyday, is simply lean protein and sugar. This can be from bananas or simply anything with sugar. It has to be sugar. Does this inhibit fat loss? doesnt seem to.

Of course if you dont train, or dont train hard - for whatever reason - low gi is where its at. But for someone who trains very hard the difference in GI between basmati rice, white rice, brown bread etc is neglible. Regardless of what the numbers say.

This is one of those areas where the research says one thing, and empirical evidence says slightly different.

Mike - I think its a given it does? If insulin is present - there is glucose in the blood - which makes it a bodies inherent fuel source which would stop stored fat oxidation.

I think its more important the over all picture like total energy intake etc.

BDCC wrote:I agree fully with kp. Indeed you could argue that if you time your carbohydrates well for muscle building purposes then an increase in lean tissue will result in an increase in metabolic rate and a decrease in fat mass over time.

Consuming lean protein with a banana is hardly a high gi meal and wouldn't contribute to high circulating blood sugar for any considerable period of time. If you were using yourself as an example of carbohydrates not inhibiting fat loss then you would have to be a bit more obvious than eating a banana and saying it doesn't alter anything.

I can personally testify that if I personally eat a higher carb diet consisting of higher GI grains then I store fat very quickly on it and very few clients I have trained haven't lost fat faster when they reduced their carb intake.

Well using myself as an example then here is my diet:

1: bagel, slice white bread, egg whites, ketchup
2: oats, protein isolate
3: banana (or anything with about 20-30 sugar) tuna, ketchup
4: rice, chicken
5: rice, fish
6: cottage cheese, pineapple (or any other fruit)
PWO: 50-70g jelly babies or wine gums, protein isolate

As you can see my diet is predominantly carbs and protein and very little fat.

I take the view that insulin is a storage hormone, not neccesarily a fat storage hormone as some imply. You can manipulate it and I think total energy intake is far more important than the GI of any given meal.

Mike wrote:

kp1512 wrote:

Mike wrote:Just to confuse matters worse I'm not sure I 100% agree that insulin inhibits lipolysis. Insulin is a storage hormone. Now if you dont train at all, or hard enough then yes consuming sugars etc will increase fat storage. However if you train hard, then insulin will store macros into muscle - where its needed.

One of my meals, everyday, is simply lean protein and sugar. This can be from bananas or simply anything with sugar. It has to be sugar. Does this inhibit fat loss? doesnt seem to.

Of course if you dont train, or dont train hard - for whatever reason - low gi is where its at. But for someone who trains very hard the difference in GI between basmati rice, white rice, brown bread etc is neglible. Regardless of what the numbers say.

This is one of those areas where the research says one thing, and empirical evidence says slightly different.

Mike - I think its a given it does? If insulin is present - there is glucose in the blood - which makes it a bodies inherent fuel source which would stop stored fat oxidation.

I think its more important the over all picture like total energy intake etc.

Am with Mike... insulin is something to watch out for but is not the factor of greatest concern. I'd worry more about being sedentary and constantly eating more calories than are being burned.

Mike wrote:Well using myself as an example then here is my diet:

1: bagel, slice white bread, egg whites, ketchup
2: oats, protein isolate
3: banana (or anything with about 20-30 sugar) tuna, ketchup
4: rice, chicken
5: rice, fish
6: cottage cheese, pineapple (or any other fruit)
PWO: 50-70g jelly babies or wine gums, protein isolate

As you can see my diet is predominantly carbs and protein and very little fat.

I take the view that insulin is a storage hormone, not neccesarily a fat storage hormone as some imply. You can manipulate it and I think total energy intake is far more important than the GI of any given meal.

Is this a typical diet?

health4ni wrote:

Mike wrote:Well using myself as an example then here is my diet:

1: bagel, slice white bread, egg whites, ketchup
2: oats, protein isolate
3: banana (or anything with about 20-30 sugar) tuna, ketchup
4: rice, chicken
5: rice, fish
6: cottage cheese, pineapple (or any other fruit)
PWO: 50-70g jelly babies or wine gums, protein isolate

As you can see my diet is predominantly carbs and protein and very little fat.

I take the view that insulin is a storage hormone, not neccesarily a fat storage hormone as some imply. You can manipulate it and I think total energy intake is far more important than the GI of any given meal.

Is this a typical diet?

That is how my diet has been since Jan 1st this year. I'm leaner, bigger, harder and more vascular. And I use more ketchup/brown sauce than I'd like to admit too lol

No intentions on changing the diet just yet.
'
What are you thinking?

Bit harsh, but I'll take it as a joke.

I'm thinking that is an awful diet for someone trying to get super lean for a competition.

1: bread? Is just bad. And ketchup is sugar (even though I love it). No veg.
2: not really a meal. Ok for PWO. No veg. Fruit doesn't count.
3: ketchup again. Where's the veg?
4: ok, but add some veg
5: ^^ same as above
6: same as above
PWO: what's with the sweets? That's like school boy stuff. Dextrose is dead cheap and far better than those things that have lots of e numbers and crap in them.

Bit harsh maybe, but you did ask so I thought I'd share.

In all honesty Mike, most people here would say that diet is not great for your goals.

health4ni wrote:Bit harsh, but I'll take it as a joke.

I'm thinking that is an awful diet for someone trying to get super lean for a competition.

1: bread? Is just bad. And ketchup is sugar (even though I love it). No veg.
2: not really a meal. Ok for PWO. No veg. Fruit doesn't count.
3: ketchup again. Where's the veg?
4: ok, but add some veg
5: ^^ same as above
6: same as above
PWO: what's with the sweets? That's like school boy stuff. Dextrose is dead cheap and far better than those things that have lots of e numbers and crap in them.

Bit harsh maybe, but you did ask so I thought I'd share.

In all honesty Mike, most people here would say that diet is not great for your goals.

I'm with you h4ni. Its not harsh mate, we're all adults here and constructive criticism benifits us all

Mike - eat ya veg bwoy!

health4ni wrote:Bit harsh, but I'll take it as a joke.

I'm thinking that is an awful diet for someone trying to get super lean for a competition.

1: bread? Is just bad. And ketchup is sugar (even though I love it). No veg.
2: not really a meal. Ok for PWO. No veg. Fruit doesn't count.
3: ketchup again. Where's the veg?
4: ok, but add some veg
5: ^^ same as above
6: same as above
PWO: what's with the sweets? That's like school boy stuff. Dextrose is dead cheap and far better than those things that have lots of e numbers and crap in them.

Bit harsh maybe, but you did ask so I thought I'd share.

In all honesty Mike, most people here would say that diet is not great for your goals.

What you mean 'bit harsh'? take what as a joke? Am I suppose to have said something bad?

I asked 'what are you thinking' as I was genuinly interested in what you had to say about it.

That is my real diet.

Yeah I could eat more veg, and I tend to go through phases where I'll eat 2kg+ of veg per week, sometimes none. I know most people would say 'oh your diet sucks' lol but its hard to argue with results, isnt it? This isnt all my doing, I just get told what to do, and I do it. At first I thought 'this goes against everything you read' but then things started changing for the better and I thought 'to hell with it'.

PWO I usually have nesquick, but changed it recently to sugary sweets.

I dont think what you said is harsh, I was interested to see what you'd say.

^^ sorry Mike, I thought the

Mike wrote:That is how my diet has been since Jan 1st this year. I'm leaner, bigger, harder and more vascular.

was a dig at me, since I've been saying the same thing since Jan 1st! lol

tbh this shows that there's more than one way to skin a cat... but your way is not a particularly healthy way. BUT your goal is to get ripped, and if that is all that matters and your diet works, then that's fine.

I believe that you could still achieve the same with a similar plan that I follow; which is healthier too.

health4ni wrote:^^ sorry Mike, I thought the

Mike wrote:That is how my diet has been since Jan 1st this year. I'm leaner, bigger, harder and more vascular.

was a dig at me, since I've been saying the same thing since Jan 1st! lol

tbh this shows that there's more than one way to skin a cat... but your way is not a particularly healthy way. BUT your goal is to get ripped, and if that is all that matters and your diet works, then that's fine.

I believe that you could still achieve the same with a similar plan that I follow; which is healthier too.

Ah no definatley not a dig at you. lol. Guess we've both been making good progress lately!

Yeah I'd agree its possibly not the healthiest way, but like you say I am more concerned with performance than health. I feel great so I'm not complaining. I mean I could probably eat more veg which would help.

What does your diet look like? dont you drink salt and stuff? Not sure I could handle that lol

Mike wrote: dont you drink salt and stuff? Not sure I could handle that lol

- Aren't bodybuilders meant to be totally gung-ho when it comes to dieting? Do every little thing which might improve your condition even if it burns your taste buds off!

Probably alot more (bad quality) salt in your diet tbf mike.

Do you think things would be the same if you were a non-user? - definitely not. Do you perhaps think it's possible you might be leaner on a better diet? - Imo, yes.

You also have to think about your health in the long run. Redgrave got diabetes and he was an elite athlete! Some athletes boast about the amount of crap they eat, but chronically high insulin has a whole host of negative effects, not to mention combining that with very little veg.

lol at the salt thing Mike. I don't just drink salt hehe

A little bit of natural salt in every litre of water. I have given a one day fairly representative diet, that you have seen.

Karlos wrote:

Mike wrote: dont you drink salt and stuff? Not sure I could handle that lol

- Aren't bodybuilders meant to be totally gung-ho when it comes to dieting? Do every little thing which might improve your condition even if it burns your taste buds off!

Ummm not sure I know what you mean here

Karlos wrote:Probably alot more (bad quality) salt in your diet tbf mike.

I dont think there is no

Karlos wrote:Do you perhaps think it's possible you might be leaner on a better diet? - Imo, yes.

Better as in? more alkaline? I'm not sure I'd be leaner purely from just being more alkaline. Eating more veg = more fibre which has its benefits yes. Would that make me leaner? Maybe maybe not

Karlos wrote:You also have to think about your health in the long run. Redgrave got diabetes and he was an elite athlete! Some athletes boast about the amount of crap they eat, but chronically high insulin has a whole host of negative effects, not to mention combining that with very little veg.

I dont think my insulin levels are 'chronically high'. I use basmati rice and oats over 3 meals. I have bagel/bread at breakfast, sugar pwo and no refined cho before bed. I dont see that my insulin would be out of control. I get a health check every 5-6 months and am perfectly healthy at the moment. The way I see it is I have plenty of time to worry about general health.

That said I'd say I am 100% healther than most [average] people.

You may be perfectly healthy by GP standards but you are trying to do something which isn't normal by the GP standards, they aren't used to people being below 10% fat eating protein at every meal.

GP use standards which are average for the population. As glucose levels through the population increase as do the recommendations they hold you by. Essentially you are getting compared to markers which are deteriorating.

Are you healthy by the 'average' man- hell yes, I don't see Burger King in there anywhere. Are you healthy by the guy who is trying to maintain 5% fat- probably not.

Mike wrote:

Karlos wrote:

Mike wrote: dont you drink salt and stuff? Not sure I could handle that lol

- Aren't bodybuilders meant to be totally gung-ho when it comes to dieting? Do every little thing which might improve your condition even if it burns your taste buds off!

Ummm not sure I know what you mean here

Hmmm, i was just trying to say adding alittle good quality salt to drinks doesn't taste bad and is worth it. And you're a wussy excuse for a bodybuilder.

Karlos wrote:Probably alot more (bad quality) salt in your diet tbf mike.

I dont think there is no

OK maybe not, but considering you're a sports science student, are you not aware of the importance of sodium in hydration and neuromuscular function?

Karlos wrote:Do you perhaps think it's possible you might be leaner on a better diet? - Imo, yes.

Better as in? more alkaline? I'm not sure I'd be leaner purely from just being more alkaline. Eating more veg = more fibre which has its benefits yes. Would that make me leaner? Maybe maybe not

More alkaline, more fibre, more vits/mins/antioxidants, more alkaline, better insulin sensitivity. That's just the eating more veg part. I would also eat more fat and better sources of carbohydrate. In my personal opinion, the product of all these benefits (plus the ones I havn't mentioned) would benefit you.

Karlos wrote:You also have to think about your health in the long run. Redgrave got diabetes and he was an elite athlete! Some athletes boast about the amount of crap they eat, but chronically high insulin has a whole host of negative effects, not to mention combining that with very little veg.

I dont think my insulin levels are 'chronically high'. I use basmati rice and oats over 3 meals. I have bagel/bread at breakfast, sugar pwo and no refined cho before bed. I dont see that my insulin would be out of control. I get a health check every 5-6 months and am perfectly healthy at the moment. The way I see it is I have plenty of time to worry about general health.

That said I'd say I am 100% healther than most [average] people.

I bet sir Steve Redgrave didn't think his insulin was chronically high either.

Agree with BDCC with GP standards also. The health of the nation is pretty shocking.

lol Karlos...

Maybe I am a wuss...we'll talk about that more after we see who gets the 1st place trophy

Yes I am aware of the importance of sodium, as well as other things. Does that make me wanna add salt to my water? Mmmm no.

Eating more fat would not help my conditioning. Maybe from a health standpoint I'd eat more oily fish etc but for what I'm trying to acheive more fat = last place.

Better sources of cho? Mmmm I guess I could eat less bread, other than that everything is fine. I may this week replace some bread with fat free yoghurt although not sure as that would increase the cost of my diet which is already too much.

BDDC - trying to maintain 5% or less bodyfat isnt exactly a healthy endeavour anyway. Also there are very few people who take their health so seriously, even in the fitness industry.

The thing I've learnt over the past few months is that in bodybuilding, what actually works is generally what isnt written in the text books. Which is why when I tell people what I'm doing people think 'oh that doesnt work' or 'that shouldnt work' or whatever. Thing is though I look ok and feel great. Thats all I need to validate what I do. When it stops working then I'll re-evaluate.