Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

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Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby health4ni on Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:38 pm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1905 ... d_RVDocSum

Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men.

Moore DR, Robinson MJ, Fry JL, Tang JE, Glover EI, Wilkinson SB, Prior T, Tarnopolsky MA, Phillips SM.
Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Canada.

BACKGROUND: The anabolic effect of resistance exercise is enhanced by the provision of dietary protein. OBJECTIVES: We aimed to determine the ingested protein dose response of muscle (MPS) and albumin protein synthesis (APS) after resistance exercise. In addition, we measured the phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins thought to regulate acute changes in MPS. DESIGN: Six healthy young men reported to the laboratory on 5 separate occasions to perform an intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise. After exercise, participants consumed, in a randomized order, drinks containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g whole egg protein. Protein synthesis and whole-body leucine oxidation were measured over 4 h after exercise by a primed constant infusion of [1-(13)C]leucine. RESULTS: MPS displayed a dose response to dietary protein ingestion and was maximally stimulated at 20 g. The phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (Thr(389)), ribosomal protein S6 (Ser(240/244)), and the epsilon-subunit of eukaryotic initiation factor 2B (Ser(539)) were unaffected by protein ingestion. APS increased in a dose-dependent manner and also reached a plateau at 20 g ingested protein. Leucine oxidation was significantly increased after 20 and 40 g protein were ingested. CONCLUSIONS: Ingestion of 20 g intact protein is sufficient to maximally stimulate MPS and APS after resistance exercise. Phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins was not enhanced with any dose of protein ingested, which suggested that the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability. Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation.


I thought this study had been discussed on ESN before but I couldn't find it. Maybe it was another study that found that 20g was also ideal/enough??

I thought that the last sentence regarding too much protein causing oxidation was an interesting one. Something to think about.

Anyway, Jason Ferruggia posted about protein requirements using this study as scientific justification for his experiences.

http://jasonferruggia.com/the-high-prot ... sed-again/
Jason Ferruggia wrote:The High Protein Myth- Exposed Again

October 12, 2009

proteinsbs The High Protein Myth Exposed AgainI hate to say “I told you so.”

But… I told you so.

For years now I have been getting a lot of flak from other fitness industry insiders and so called experts because I exposed the great protein myth at every chance I got.

They all either thought I was insane or were upset that I was blowing the whistle on their scam and costing them tons of money every year.

But now, due to a recent study that everyone is talking about, people are starting to change their tune and realize what I have been telling you all along…

You DON’T need 2-3 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight to build muscle. It’s a lie promoted by the supplement and meat and dairy industry. That’s it.

Just another way to make money.

But hardly a scientific fact.

Recently Tarnopolsky performed a study in which weight trained individuals consumed a drink containing either: 5, 10, 20 or 40 grams of protein immediately after their workout. Each of the groups increased protein synthesis, but their results were dose dependant.

Up to 20 grams, that is. While the 20 gram group significantly increased protein synthesis over the 10 gram group, the 40 gram group did not significantly increase protein synthesis over the 20 gram group.

So any more than 20-30 grams of protein at one sitting isn’t necessarily going to benefit you in any significant way.

The conclusion to be drawn from this most recent study is what I have been saying all along… You don’t need all that protein. In fact, eating too much will force your body to burn protein instead of fat for energy and can make getting leaner a more difficult process.

Twenty to thirty grams of protein, every few hours is all that’s needed to build muscle. For most people that will be no more than about 150 grams per day.

Before I ever recommended a lower protein intake to you guys I tried several experiments on myself and my clients for years. Back in the early 90’s I slowly increased my protein intake all the way up to 450 grams per day. I also recruited a few training partners and clients for the experiment.

And after eight weeks nothing happened.

Then I tried experimenting with protein cycling and went on low protein for a while, thinking that if I desensitized my body to protein I would grow like a week upon reintroducing it.

Well, that never happened.

But during the low protein phase I actually gained muscle and lost fat. I even remember my brother commenting one day, about three weeks into it that he had never seen me in better shape.

Even after experiencing better results with less protein it shames me to admit that there were several times during the 90’s where someone would make a convincing enough argument to make me try super high protein again.

And all I ever did was end up fatter and poorer.

Admit it; you’ve tried it too. You added another steak or protein shake to your diet and thought, “this will be just what I need to really start growing.” And nothing happens.

Then you increased the size of your daily omelet from 3 eggs to 10. Still nothing.

Stop the insanity.

great outdoors The High Protein Myth Exposed AgainFrom now on instead of ordering 3 chicken breasts, save the money and just get one. Or order an extra baked potato or two for the extra calories and throw down a few tablespoons of olive oil when you’re done.

Instead of ordering “The Old 96′er” (”There’s nothing but gristle and fat on that plate.”) settle for a more human sized 8 ounce steak.

Instead of 4 scoops in your protein shake use one or two.

Instead of a dozen eggs I think you’ll be just fine with 3-5, depending on the size.

The first time I ate breakfast with Jim Wendler, Dave Tate and CJ Murphy, all of whom were around 300lbs at the time, I ordered extra eggs in my omelet while they simply ordered theirs as is.

I thought, “Man, what a douche, I am. These guys all outweigh me by 80 pounds. What’s wrong with you?”

I have been fooled many times. But like The Who, I won’t get fooled again.

I hope you don’t either.

An educated man is a dangerous man,
Jason Ferruggia
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby kp1512 on Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:48 pm

additionally - the issue may be that some people just have a lower rate of absorption hence why they feel they need higher? So whilst the same net gms of protein may be getting to where it needs to - they need for to get the same effect?
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby ollie on Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Also the study was only done using egg protein - and of course temporal PS varies according to the protein source, so this could be a factor.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby Karlos on Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:58 pm

Interesting stuff. I've stopped worrying about protein so much now. I still probably get 150-200g a day, but some of my meals might be mostly fat and veg and i no longer feel the need to purposely bump the protein up to 40-50g with a shake. I think the important thing when trying to get bigger is getting the quality calories in, be it fat or carbs, both are better options than excess protein.

Saying that, i still do read stuff on tnation that basically say more protein the better. John Beradi is an advocate of this i think. Greater protein = greater protein turnover, higher metabolism, controlled appetite/blood sugar etc.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby ollie on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:05 pm

I think it's a very individual thing. For me I find that too much protein = fat gain, however anything in the region of 180g-250g seems to work pretty well.

I guess you see more of a benefit with higher quantities on AAS.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby cleaver on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:07 pm

Karlos wrote:Saying that, i still do read stuff on tnation that basically say more protein the better. John Beradi is an advocate of this i think. Greater protein = greater protein turnover, higher metabolism, controlled appetite/blood sugar etc.


Most of the t-fag writers have commercial interests to promote in their articles.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby Karlos on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:10 pm

Yep, can't dispute that, but they mostly plug there stuff shamelessly and you can just filter the info about the over-priced supps.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby health4ni on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:12 pm

I think that no more than 1g per pound of body weight. So Ollie's 180g is about max imo.

I'll go anywhere from 0.6 to 0.8g per pound of BW.

KP has a point, but imo that relates to protein type and it's actual absorption and digestion in the body. I personally maintain that whey protein (being an animal protein and very processed) is not absorbed by the body that well. It's BV is high and in theory should be good but I don't think the human likes it that much. Although of the animal protein powders a decent whey protein concentrate like BSD's unflavoured one is as good as it gets imo.

I think the body is happier with plant proteins like hemp and pea & rice that are cold-processed (well, hemp is anyway for sure).

So maybe KP is correct in saying some people need more due to the type they are eating, but then you have to question what the hell happens to al that unused stuff?? Stuck to your intestines probably lol
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby cleaver on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:19 pm

thought I'd throw this into the picture


Level of dietary protein impacts whole body protein turnover in trained males at rest

Patricia C. Gainea, Matthew A. Pikoskya, William F. Martina, Douglas R. Bolsterb, Carl M. Mareshb and Nancy R. Rodrigueza, Corresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author

aDepartment of Nutritional Sciences, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06269, USA

bDepartment of Kinesiology, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06269, USA

Received 8 September 2005;
accepted 10 October 2005.
Available online 17 March 2006.

Abstract

The current investigation examined the effect of variations in protein intake on Whole body protein turnover (WBPTO) at rest in endurance-trained males. Whole body protein turnover is influenced by both diet and exercise. Whether endurance athletes require more protein than the non-exerciser remains equivocal. Five male runners (21.3 ± 0.3 years, 179 ± 2 cm, 70.6 ± 0.1 kg, 8.7% ± 0.4% body fat, 70.6 ± 0.1 V˙o2max) participated in a randomized, crossover design diet intervention where they consumed either a low-protein (LP; 0.8 g/kg), moderate-protein (MP; 1.8 g/kg), or high-protein (HP; 3.6 g/kg) diet for 3 weeks. Whole body protein turnover (Ra, leucine rate of appearance; NOLD, nonoxidative leucine disposal; and Ox, leucine oxidation), nitrogen balance, and substrate oxidation were assessed at rest following each dietary intervention period. The HP diet increased leucine Ra (indicator of protein breakdown; 136.7 ± 9.3, 129.1 ± 7.4, and 107.8 ± 3.1 μmol/[kg · h] for HP, MP, and LP diets, respectively) and leucine Ox (31.0 ± 3.6, 26.2 ± 4.3, and 18.3 ± 0.6 μmol/[kg · h] for HP, MP, and LP diets, respectively) compared with LP diet (P < .05). No differences were noted in nonoxidative leucine disposal (an indicator of protein synthesis) across diets. Nitrogen balance was greater for HP diet than for MP and LP diets (10.2 ± 0.7, 1.8 ± 0.6, and −0.3 ± 0.5 for HP, MP, and LP diets, respectively). Protein oxidation increased with increasing protein intake (54% ± 6%, 25% ± 1%, and 14% ± 2% for HP, MP, and LP diets, respectively). Findings from this study show that variations in protein intake can modulate WBPTO and that protein intake approximating the current recommended dietary allowance was not sufficient to achieve nitrogen balance in the endurance-trained males in this investigation. Our results suggest that a protein intake of 1.2 g/kg or 10% of total energy intake is needed to achieve a positive nitrogen balance. This is not a concern for most endurance athletes who routinely consume protein at or above this level.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby Rab on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:28 pm

That 20g only takes into account a protein thats quickly digesting into the blood. What about eating say 200g of red meat (along with other things). your goign to get a drip feed of protein/amino into the blood, rather than a spike like you would with the protein used n the study shirly?

And then what about if you have naturally very high testosterone like Ripped Caveman..or you are using AAS and your protein synthesis capability is increased by a whack?

What that study suggests to me is that using 1 scoop of whey at a time is the effective way to do it, rather than two at a time as most probably do. Sound about right?
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby cleaver on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:33 pm

full text here

Effect of variable protein intake on whole-body protein turnover in young men and women

DL Pannemans, D Halliday, KR Westerterp and AD Kester
Department of Human Biology, University of Limburg, Maastricht, Netherlands.

The effect of the amount of protein intake (12% and 21% of total energy intake, diet A and diet B, respectively) on nitrogen balance and whole- body protein turnover (PT) was measured in 19 young men and 10 young women (aged 30 +/- 5 and 27 +/- 4 y, respectively). In young adults, mean nitrogen balance was approximately zero during diet A whereas it was positive during diet B. In young adults, PT was significantly higher during diet B in comparison with diet A. This was also seen in elderly subjects, as described before. From a comparison of the current data with the data previously obtained in elderly subjects it can be concluded that during diet A young adults had PT rates higher than those of elderly subjects. During diet B, PT of young men was comparable with the PT of elderly men whereas young women still had higher PT rates than elderly women (even when corrections were made for differences in body composition).


Basically in this study they demonstated that 1g per KG (12% diet) just managed to maintain nitrogen balance whereas the 1.8g per kg (21% diet) maintained a postive nitrogen level.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby Alex on Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:13 pm

This doesn't take into account how long each individual digestive system is as the shorter the system, the less time available for nutrients to be fully extracted from food sources due to the shorter length of time spent in the gut. you could therefore speculate that short individuals more need to eat more frequently and/or in greater quanities per sitting in order to extract that same amount of nutritional content compared to their taller counterparts.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby Resurrected on Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:20 pm

This debate has been going on for as long as I have been training & that is a long time :( .

I do not think there is or has been any real research done that will give a true qualitative result.

Supplement companies obviously do not help as they have a vested interest in getting you to consume as musch as possible to help maximise there profits.

There are so many variables as some people have already stated ie, type of protein, ingested with what else, absorbtion, tolerance.

I certainly would not agree that the body prefers protein that is based on vegetable matter & it certainly flies in the face of every facet of human evolution. I'd not disagree that only comsuming plant protein has no down sides, you only have to google Andreas Cahling or Bill Pearl to see what kind of physique can be developed. But this is not down to consuming vegetarian produce, it is down to hard work and good genetics.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby simon m on Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:02 pm

I eat cows and drink milk protein as I've never seen a vegatable that wheys (gedit!) a tonne and is all muscle
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby health4ni on Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:33 pm

I do agree with some of the issues involved that you have all aired. But there's a few studies that show via a scientific method that high protein intakes per meal is not the way to go. That 20g'ish seems to be about right. I don't think that 30g per serving would be a problem either though. That may cover all eventualities as it were and thus you're playing on the safe side. More than that just doesn't seem to provide any benefit; just emptying your wallet.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby kp1512 on Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:41 pm

health4ni wrote:I do agree with some of the issues involved that you have all aired. But there's a few studies that show via a scientific method that high protein intakes per meal is not the way to go. That 20g'ish seems to be about right. I don't think that 30g per serving would be a problem either though. That may cover all eventualities as it were and thus you're playing on the safe side. More than that just doesn't seem to provide any benefit; just emptying your wallet.


i think to actually nail this youd need to take a group of 20 people from various ethnic backgrounds and meausre Nitrogen, PS, AA oxidation, muscle increase, recoveyr, strenght increase, liver values, kidney values and thts just for a start - it could be nailed closer without a doubt - but whose interest would it be in? Not the industries........but it could be done
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby Alex on Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:02 pm

May I throw into the mix the great Serge Nubret whose conditioning even by today's standards is at the top. He ate only twice a day with each sitting consisting of 1kg-2kg of meat plus vegetables and some carbs.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby health4ni on Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:05 pm

Genetic Freak = doesn't count :P
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby Alex on Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:01 pm

health4ni wrote:Genetic Freak = doesn't count :P


Maybe but it does go to prove that not one shoe fits all :)
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby Resurrected on Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:03 pm

Alex wrote:
health4ni wrote:Genetic Freak = doesn't count :P


Maybe but it does go to prove that not one shoe fits all :)


Agreed, & as for genetic freak, Well I'd have to say Scott that your genetics come into play with your physique, I'd bet that you'd a great physique even if you were your alkaline regime. I know you may argue otherwise.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby RoB on Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:36 pm

health4ni wrote:I do agree with some of the issues involved that you have all aired. But there's a few studies that show via a scientific method that high protein intakes per meal is not the way to go. That 20g'ish seems to be about right. I don't think that 30g per serving would be a problem either though. That may cover all eventualities as it were and thus you're playing on the safe side. More than that just doesn't seem to provide any benefit; just emptying your wallet.


If you consume 500g of beef in a sitting, (adding up to around 140ish grams of protein) then the protein will be drip fed into the system, just through the sheer time it takes for digestion. Big meals take longer to digest.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby simon m on Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:08 am

Resurrected wrote:
Alex wrote:
health4ni wrote:Genetic Freak = doesn't count :P


Maybe but it does go to prove that not one shoe fits all :)


Agreed, & as for genetic freak, Well I'd have to say Scott that your genetics come into play with your physique, I'd bet that you'd a great physique even if you were your alkaline regime. I know you may argue otherwise.


Scott scores very highly in both strength and composition, and he'd always have a low percentage of fat, just based upon his genetics.

Size wise, I don't Scott would ever get truely "big", but he has an impressive physique.
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Re: Ideal Amount of Protein Per Feeding

Postby health4ni on Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:32 pm

simon m wrote:
Resurrected wrote:Agreed, & as for genetic freak, Well I'd have to say Scott that your genetics come into play with your physique, I'd bet that you'd a great physique even if you were your alkaline regime. I know you may argue otherwise.


Scott scores very highly in both strength and composition, and he'd always have a low percentage of fat, just based upon his genetics.

Size wise, I don't Scott would ever get truely "big", but he has an impressive physique.
Thanks and thanks.

Getting bigger is my main gola now so we'll see what happens but yeah it's not going to be easy for me to ever look truly big.

@Res: actually I was leaner on a meat diet (but I had less muscle and wasn't as strong in 2007). On the outside, physique/muscle wise, I don't think there's a difference between me going more alkaline compared to more animal protein / acidic. imo it's the stuff that happens on the inside that's changed. General well-being has improved. Skin is better. Sleep is slightly better.

That is actually one of the big things that many people don't realise. Eating shit loads of protein and meat WILL get you bigger & stronger. I've never said it won't. It's very clear it does. But what does it do to your insides over time?? And is there another way to achieve this physique goals etc without resorting to high protein intakes and lots of meat. I think there is. But people have to want to do it themselves. And it does take time. But it's worth it I feel.
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