Hydrogen peroxide - curse or cure?

by **Rab** on Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:18 pm

I always ask the question - If it really works and the claims are true..and its an industry worth a lot of money...then they would prove it if they could...so have they?

Im not savvy on this stuff at all but being sceptical of things is the best way foward untill proven otherwise i think.

by **Craig** on Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:27 pm

Rab wrote:I always ask the question - If it really works and the claims are true..and its an industry worth a lot of money...then they would prove it if they could...so have they?

Im not savvy on this stuff at all but being sceptical of things is the best way foward untill proven otherwise i think.

Theres no money to be made from it, thats whats interesting really, how the whole concept came about.

Still its nasty stuff in the wrong dilution so scepticism seems like the right approach till proven otherwise.

by **Dtlv74** on Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:15 pm

kp1512 wrote:

I'm still really skeptical kp

Got any some peer reviewed studies or official medical literature on it?

The only support for it I've seen is theoretical and unscientific anecdotal.

no - but then peer reviewed studies tell me that if I take steroids Ill get a whole host of conditions and will eventually die

Studies that claiming that you will "get a whole host of conditions and will eventually die"?... please post them and we can discuss whether that's really what they said, look at the statistical analysis and methodology and also whether they were looking at data that represented realistic usage or not.

Anyway Mr KP, that's just a distraction argument from the fact there's no proof colonics do anything significant isn't it? :mrgreen:

Show me something that proves colonic irrigation grants a measurable medical benefit and I'll accept it and knowing me go and get my butt rinsed to see what it's like - am not closed minded and quite happy to accept it might do something... but still waiting for the evidence.

by **kp1512** on Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:28 pm

I cant say Ive looked for a study to prove it tbh but i wouldnt use that as a reason to try something either.

i think this one is a try it and see - youll know what you ate the days before and will know if what comes out is correct? plus the home kits now are easier....ill even pay for it and you do it lol...do a log with images! hahahahaha

WRT to steroids - come off it - there are a fair number of studies claiming numerous things around androgens and how dangerous they are - just google them - youll see what I am talking about. Just read an insert of a steroid with all the side efffects you may get.

by **Dtlv74** on Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:55 pm

kp1512 wrote:I cant say Ive looked for a study to prove it tbh but i wouldnt use that as a reason to try something either.

i think this one is a try it and see - youll know what you ate the days before and will know if what comes out is correct? plus the home kits now are easier....ill even pay for it and you do it lol...do a log with images! hahahahaha

WRT to steroids - come off it - there are a fair number of studies claiming numerous things around androgens and how dangerous they are - just google them - youll see what I am talking about. Just read an insert of a steroid with all the side efffects you may get.

Try and see I kind of agree with... but I don't trust personal observations alone, as often the reality of something isn't the way it appears without applied scientific measurement. Proper analysis is required (or should be imo) to confirm or deny theory based on observation.

Yes there are plenty of daft WRITE UPS of studies on recreational steroid use - have seen plenty of them, some really stupid. The thing is though that the nonsense is always an interpretation of the data in discussion... just look at the raw data and you can see that this kind of study never seems to have monitored realistic AAS usage with PCT and cycle support...or, since most of the steroids/mortality studies are done by asking people to recall what they did when in uncontrolled non study conditions, the data isn't strong enough to make any conclusions as there are too many variables not looked at.

The scare mongerers about AAS may selectively focus on the potential negatives, but that's not to deny that AAS aren't risky to health... they certainly are if not used in an organised cycle or with proper support. So they do have a point... they just often twist it.

I can't believe I've spent Valentines Day evening researching studies and articles on shit and the effects of spraying water up your bum. I guess for some pervy folk though that make a perfect valentines day

by **kp1512** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:43 am

Dtlv74 wrote:
The scare mongerers about AAS may selectively focus on the potential negatives, but that's not to deny that AAS aren't risky to health... they certainly are if not used in an organised cycle or with proper support. So they do have a point... they just often twist it.

Agree - but thats with majority of things; take 2 x 500mg Ibuprofen and ull be ok - take 15 in one hit and youll be in serious trouble.....

by **Bison** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:46 am

Here's a good read: http://www.arthritistrust.org/Articles/ ... /index.htm

A taster from Page 1

A number of clinics in the United States and Mexico use
hydrogen peroxide therapy, as well as other treatment modalities, on
a routine basis, usually given by intravenous injection (IV).
Before scoffing, keep in mind that one of the very first lines of
defense against any and all microorganisms recognized as invaders by
our immunological system are macrophages and leucocytes, one of
which uses hydrogen peroxide to oxidize the foreigners; and that
vitamin C is effective principally by its ability to promote hydrogen
peroxide use against foreign invaders, including parasites, viruses,
bacteria, yeast/fungus; and that all body tissues contain catalase and
that hydrogen peroxide in the presence of catalase is reduced to oxygen
and water. So, there is strong reason to believe that added hydrogen
peroxide, used properly, may be both effective against certain organ-
isms and safe.
Hydrogen peroxide is an essential metabolite, meaning that it is
necessary to life's process, according to William Campbell Douglass,
M.D. of Georgia.

by **Bison** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:50 am

Here's another bit that might catch a few peoples attention

According to William Campbell Douglass, M.D.2, not only is H2O2
(Hydrogen Peroxide) involved in phagocytosis (killing and
absorption of foreign germs), but also "it acts like insulin in that it aids
the transport of sugar through the body." Is is also at least as important,
or perhaps more so, than thyroid for heat generation because it creates
"intraceullar thermogenesis, a warming of your cells which is abso-
lutely essential to life's processes."

A bit more for those too lazy to click the link and read it all...

ISN’T PEROXIDE HARMFUL?
Peroxide is extremely well tolerated by the human body. This
may come as a surprise to you. After all, if peroxide kills so many
things, then why doesn’t it kill us? The answer is the enzyme CATA-
LASE. Catalase, found throughout the human body, causes hydro-
gen peroxide to change into harmless oxygen and water. Viruses
don’t have catalase, so the peroxide destroys them. Humans have
catalase in their cells, and are not destroyed by peroxide.
When you get an infection, your white blood cells surround the
germs and kill them. Well exactly HOW does the white blood cell kill
germs? Let me tell you something that 9,999 out of 10,000 MDs
don’t know. Your white blood cells produce a little hydrogen perox-
ide, and they bathe the germs in the peroxide, and this kills the
germs! It has always been peroxide that naturally cured infection in
your body!
Did you know that hydrogen peroxide is made in the atmo-
sphere, and that it comes down in our rainwater, and it kills off a
certain amount of living organisms in the soil? If it were not for this
peroxide, the earth’s surface would be putrid from bacterial over-
growth. What I’m trying to convey to you, is that peroxide is a
wonderfully natural, beneficial molecule.
This is not to say that peroxide cannot be harmful. Humans can
tolerate just so much of the stuff, and that’s why you should have
peroxide treatments only from a well trained physician. As far
as I’m concerned, if the doctor hasn’t studied the IBOM protocols,
he’s not prepared to do a good job with peroxide.

by **Bison** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:57 am

Craig wrote:
Rab wrote:I always ask the question - If it really works and the claims are true..and its an industry worth a lot of money...then they would prove it if they could...so have they?

Im not savvy on this stuff at all but being sceptical of things is the best way foward untill proven otherwise i think.

Theres no money to be made from it, thats whats interesting really, how the whole concept came about.

Still its nasty stuff in the wrong dilution so scepticism seems like the right approach till proven otherwise.

Exactly... if all the claims are true then Hydrogen Peroxide would threaten multi-million (billion?) pound industries surely??

# HYDROGEN PEROXIDE'S HISTORY: Ted from Bangkok writes, "Yes, the pharmaceuticals are threatened by hydrogen peroxide cures! Last time, about 120 years ago (during the reign of Queen Victoria), people in India (a British colony then) found that Hydrogen peroxide added in small amounts to drinking water cured a variety of sickness especially colds, flu, cholera, malaria, etc. It threatened the British monopoly drug sales, so they issued a fake news by hiring a news reporter disguised as a doctor to put out the information to the effect that taking hydrogen peroxide causes viral brain damage. It sounded believable, but the child who died of the hydrogen peroxide caused viral brain damage was non-existent.
# It worked and the people in India went to buying British drugs, while suppressing India's own Ayurvedic medicine from any sales. It is amazing that Ayurvedic medicine actually survived under British threat for more than 200 years of occupation!
# It has happened during the Queen Victoria era, and now it is happening again. History repeats itself, only this time, we now have the internet, which at least for now, the information is free. No doubt, freedom of information is something we just have to always be vigilant
# and fight for."

by **Dtlv74** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:50 am

Have been reading up on this a bit today (as well as the bum washing off topic stuff) and H2O2 certainly seems to play a vital part in fighting infection... is naturally secreted in soft tissue injury to prevent infection and when infection is present, antibodies themselves also produce it as an immediate response.

While this on the face of it suggests H2O2 is appropriate for use to fight infection, it also begs a question about efficacy... as if it's the wonder it's claimed to be but is already naturally produced by the body during such infections then it can't be a wonder cure as if it was we'd beat these infections easily naturally. The only question then could become shifted to dosage and a theory that by delivering more to the site of infection we could help the body out, but since H2O2 solutions above 40% apparently burn through soft tissue, is it practically possible to administer a dose in a quantity that would be safe and actually do anything?

A few links. The wiki link at the end is actually pretty good.

For oral hygiene, a topical skin treatment, and general cleanser/disinfectant at 3% strength though it looks solid and well backed up.

http://www.liebertpub.com/mcontent/file ... whsyb2.pdf

http://www.innovations-report.de/html/b ... 14498.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_p ... peutic_use

by **GymBunny** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:58 pm

I would not go about ingesting H202. As Cat says it's fantastic for killing infection in open wounds and its application can prevent conditions like gangrene (which is why I always have some when off hiking).

But injestion? Something like that I would only do under medical supervision. H202 is one of those chemical compounds we know relatively little about and I'm highly cautious of jumping on the bandwagon of a new fad and using myself as a guineapig.

by **kp1512** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:09 pm

GymBunny wrote:I would not go about ingesting H202. As Cat says it's fantastic for killing infection in open wounds and its application can prevent conditions like gangrene (which is why I always have some when off hiking).

But injestion? Something like that I would only do under medical supervision. H202 is one of those chemical compounds we know relatively little about and I'm highly cautious of jumping on the bandwagon of a new fad and using myself as a guineapig.

not even for giggles ? youtube it with an IV lol

joke!

by **GymBunny** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:17 pm

kp1512 wrote:
GymBunny wrote:I would not go about ingesting H202. As Cat says it's fantastic for killing infection in open wounds and its application can prevent conditions like gangrene (which is why I always have some when off hiking).

But injestion? Something like that I would only do under medical supervision. H202 is one of those chemical compounds we know relatively little about and I'm highly cautious of jumping on the bandwagon of a new fad and using myself as a guineapig.

not even for giggles ? youtube it with an IV lol

joke!

Not on myself no.....

I find it very interesting that a lot of these websites advise against using H202 with iron due to the radicals created, yet, the activation reaction between H202 and iron is the key reaction in the cycle.

It really worries me actually how people are prepared to take things like this working on a if you take more of this it has an alkalising/acidifying/cleansing effect without understanding there is no linear effect, but instead a complicated system of equilibrium kinetics with a multitude of variables. I've been working on just one of these systems for 2 years now and I still don't fully understand it.

by **kp1512** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:43 pm

on a side note this is similar to DNP

DNP is alleged to kill cancer cells due to the heat it creates inside the body - but the very oxidative nature of its effects make the increase of byproducts potentially cancerous. so if you take alot of good anti oxs there's milage in researching its effects on cancer even.

by **Dtlv74** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:06 pm

GymBunny wrote:I find it very interesting that a lot of these websites advise against using H202 with iron due to the radicals created, yet, the activation reaction between H202 and iron is the key reaction in the cycle.

It really worries me actually how people are prepared to take things like this working on a if you take more of this it has an alkalising/acidifying/cleansing effect without understanding there is no linear effect, but instead a complicated system of equilibrium kinetics with a multitude of variables. I've been working on just one of these systems for 2 years now and I still don't fully understand it.

Good post GB. I always trust a scientist far more when they admit uncertainty and say "this is how it appears with what we know so far" rather than saying "this is how it is - end of". I think these 'experts' get caught up on particular aspect of a system and then just focus on it out of context of everything else that's going on. Seems pretty common.

Interestingly too when reseraching this and the colonics thing yesterday, there are a huge number of sites on these subjects yet most of the info on them can be tracked back to one or two original articles that seem to have just been cut and pasted and altered a little by everyone else. There are also fictional references in some of them.

by **GymBunny** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:24 pm

No scientist can ever say "this is the way it is!" It's simply not possible. (There we go...emphatic statement

)

What I find most worrying about the websites promoting the ingestion of H202 is that they quote the simple decomposition reaction:

2 H2O2 → 2 H2O + O2

This is correct, but this reaction is one considered in isolation. Add in gastric acid for example and you change the kinetics. Hell, the more compounds available the greater the potential to change the products of a reaction.

I don't think I can even list everything that is present in the stomach, but everything will impact. Therefore to state you get oxygen and this releases an extra oxygen atom into the tissues illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of:

1. Basic biochemistry - What actually happens in the stomach.
2. kinetic effects
3. Acidic environments slow the decomposition
4. The reaction between H202 and yeast. Say you'Re taking it to assist with a candida infection. Well the reaction is highly exothermic and is volatile you can reduce flash point to a level where a flame could be reignited.

I've actually contacted a biochemist and he's done a quick search and we can't find any peer-reviewed papers demonstrating the increase of oxygen levels in the tissues as a result of ingestion.

Claims like this seem becoming more and more popular on the internet with people focusing on one aspect and ignoring anything else that doesn't "fit". Chemistry doesn't work like this.

I'm not surprised they list possible side effects as "vomiting".

I really really want to discourage anyone from following a protocol like this.

by **RoB** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:37 pm

Good posts GB, it is also a profound simplification of the immune system to state

Your white blood cells produce a little hydrogen peroxide, and they bathe the germs in the peroxide, and this kills the germs! It has always been peroxide that naturally cured infection in your body!

by **kp1512** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:51 pm

so has anyone tried it as in on the boards?

by **simon m** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:40 pm

I'm getting the hosepipe out fellas - wish me luck!

by **GymBunny** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:44 pm

Further searching on my part reveals none of the Drs promoting this product are biochemists, or have a biochemistry background. Most are homepathic doctors, tho one was a chiropractor?

Seriously, seriously, don't do this.

by **simon m** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:45 pm

GymBunny wrote:Further searching on my part reveals none of the Drs promoting this product are biochemists, or have a biochemistry background. Most are homepathic doctors, tho one was a chiropractor?

Seriously, seriously, don't do this.

I understand, but I can still shove something up my bum for fun surely???

by **GymBunny** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:47 pm

simon m wrote:
GymBunny wrote:Further searching on my part reveals none of the Drs promoting this product are biochemists, or have a biochemistry background. Most are homepathic doctors, tho one was a chiropractor?

Seriously, seriously, don't do this.

I understand, but I can still shove something up my bum for fun surely???

If you really want to....but please video the explosion so we have a warning for anyone else thinking about it.

by **simon m** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:48 pm

GymBunny wrote:
simon m wrote:
GymBunny wrote:Further searching on my part reveals none of the Drs promoting this product are biochemists, or have a biochemistry background. Most are homepathic doctors, tho one was a chiropractor?

Seriously, seriously, don't do this.

I understand, but I can still shove something up my bum for fun surely???

If you really want to....but please video the explosion so we have a warning for anyone else thinking about it.

Will do!

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH1OUvL-5Mg

by **kp1512** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:09 pm

hmmm so this is dangerous then?

can we not try it on curt?

by **Bison** on Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:17 pm

I believe 90% hydrogen peroxide can be used as rocket fuel.... so if you combined it with the colonic irrigation and shoved some of that up your jacksee, I'd imagine the resulting reaction as it met all the bacteria could result in some serious propulsion?

Disclaimer - Don't try this at home kids!!

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