the_cheshirecat wrote:Pingu, you already know what I think
I am useless when it comes to nutrition, so I'll leave it to Craig to say something clever

Craig wrote: along with some peanut butter in there.

Pingu wrote:Thanks Mike!

The LZRs are also illegal for amateur competitions. Masters can still wear them, so I could wear one in a Masters competition, but it "normal" amateur competitions unless it is on the FINA approved list you can't wear it. Can't get in a normal Fastskin so wouldn't stand a chance with an LZR!

Mike wrote:

Pingu wrote:Thanks Mike!

The LZRs are also illegal for amateur competitions. Masters can still wear them, so I could wear one in a Masters competition, but it "normal" amateur competitions unless it is on the FINA approved list you can't wear it. Can't get in a normal Fastskin so wouldn't stand a chance with an LZR!

That is a shame, although they are pricey. I read it takes some about 20minutes to get into them! lol Baring in the mind the key points to why it works are compression which prevents muscle oscillation reducing form drag and are made from polyurethane which is some fancy super duper material that has very little hydrodynamic drag. They also repell water and are seamless (which apparently causes a small amount of friction drag). With that in mind maybe its possible to find something similair that isnt banned. Although I'm sure FINA werent niave enough to simply ban LZR's but probably banned anything made of polyurethane. That said I dont know FINA rules inside out so it may be worth a check or speak to your coach. Of course this is all a bit much for some. Is just my 'win at all costs' mentality coming out

Alex wrote:See they went about banning suits in the wrong way. What they should have done is have the swimmers naked and get them to do a LeMans style start where they have to put on their chosen item of swimwear. I bet no one would use one of the special swimsuits if this were implemented as it would take too long to put on.

Alex wrote:See they went about banning suits in the wrong way. What they should have done is have the swimmers naked and get them to do a LeMans style start where they have to put on their chosen item of swimwear. I bet no one would use one of the special swimsuits if this were implemented as it would take too long to put on.

Mike wrote:

Craig wrote: along with some peanut butter in there.

Do you really think there is a need for fat for a competitive athlete? Considering Maddies events are primarily anaerobic ones (100m/50m). In the 100m for example the contribution of different energy systems is roughly 8% ATP-PCr, 52% anaerobic glycolytic and 40% aerobic. With that in mind I'd suspect loading up with CHO before hand as suggested is optimal, and then CHO after the event to restore any lost glycogen and aid recovery (obv with added protein after the event too). Even during training, more so in the preparation and pre-competitive phases her training will be geared towards her event i.e. more anaerobic than aerobic. Any fats consumed on top of the CHO may be stored and any glycogen not replenished may hinder recovery.

Not saying your wrong or anything but I think for a competitive athlete in a primarily anaerobic event CHO is the prefered energy source. Healthy fats have their place, even for athletes, but not for anaerobic events. I think Maddie will have enough time to consume fat during her offseason.

Pingu wrote:I am personally glad they banned the suits, although I think they should revert any and all records that were broken in them because it is going to be near on impossible to break them again without the suits.

It's not too bad to find a good suit actually, FINA have FINALLY released a list of all their approved suits so you just pick one from there. I've got myself a Speedo FS Pro Fastskin (which yes, does take about 20 minutes to get into and you end up with bruises!) so am hoping that will work! I definitely want to win, but I do need a bit more help against the kiddos!

Craig wrote:You seemed to have misunderstood my post. I did recomend low GI complex carbs pre from solid food, palatinose during but post workout I suggested a little fat for the following reasons,

1. The catecholamines produced by the workout will make carbs a poor choice post workout as the stress hormones blunts insulin sensitivity and insulin production.
2. The palatinose (a low GI fibre free sugar replacement powder) will have stopped any over depletion of glycogen levels.
3. Fast carbs before bed will blunt any GH response.
4. The fats will slow down the digestion of the protein.
5. Protein plus fat last thing at night has been tried and tested in the trenches and come out tops for body comp (Pingu mention this also in her post).

The reason I chose peanut butter is that its cheap and it tastes good in a shake.

simon m wrote:I'm with Mike on the food, keep it simple and light, then re-feed. I always found fat before rugby made me feel sluggish.

Mike wrote:Anyway now your on the squad I'm sure your coach will have you doing lots of energy system specific training such as fast intervals for anaerobic syste and maximal swimming for your ATP-PCr system. The end result (after a consistent offseason) should be a faster time. Add to that some strength training for your lower body to add more power into your leg action and I bet you'll be outperforming the kids in no time. The kids being younger doesnt neccessarily put them at an advantage, theyre physiology is still developing, they may be dealing with social issues, psychological etc etc etc.

Not sure if your squad has a team psychologist, but I would fully recommend this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Guide- ... 364&sr=8-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the title is deceptive as its about sport psychology and offers, in plain english, methods of incorporating the science into your training to make a difference.

Anyway thats enough from me, congrats once again and good luck.

Pingu wrote:

Craig wrote:You seemed to have misunderstood my post. I did recomend low GI complex carbs pre from solid food, palatinose during but post workout I suggested a little fat for the following reasons - didnt misunderstand which is why I only highlighted the 'peanut butter' and not the rest.

1. The catecholamines produced by the workout will make carbs a poor choice post workout as the stress hormones blunts insulin sensitivity and insulin production. - and carbs blunt cortisol.
2. The palatinose (a low GI fibre free sugar replacement powder) will have stopped any over depletion of glycogen levels.-taking cho before hand then doing high intensity exercise will result in some degree of depletion. So cho afterward is almost essential.
3. Fast carbs before bed will blunt any GH response.-true.
4. The fats will slow down the digestion of the protein.-moot point really.
5. Protein plus fat last thing at night has been tried and tested in the trenches and come out tops for body comp (Pingu mention this also in her post).-true. But Maddie is after performance AND favourable body comp. the science shows cho will serve her best as an athlete who competes in predominantly anaerobic events. During her preperation, precompetitive and competition phases her body will be a finely tuned machine capable of extreme high intenisty performance, fats will just not cover it as they take far too long to be broken down. If she was a distance athlete I'd say yes, fats may prove adventagous to some degree.

The reason I chose peanut butter is that its cheap and it tastes good in a shake.

Oh boy. Firstly, may I say thank you for such considered responses...even though I hardly understand any of what Mike said and only some of what Craig has said! Despite that, I am interested in the argument for and against the use of carbs after training, as its certainly what we are advised to do by coaches. - they advise it because the science say it works. Dont get me wrong for average Joe playing footy on a saturday his nutrition is almost irrelevant. For an athlete wanted to achieve maximum performance in an anaerobic event, carbs are preferred.

I'm going to have to play around with this because up to now all my swim training has been in the morning. I do have some coconut oil in my shake in the mornings and haven't noticed and special sluggishness -you wouldnt, because coconut contains MCT's and although are classified as saturated fats actually are utilized in the same way as carbs in the body so will be used almost immeadiatly. Some high level athletes use MCTs before an event to try and preserve carbohydrate stores. some science says it works, some says theyre no better off than if they carb loaded. (is that a word?!), or at least no more than you would expect at 6am! I'm wondering how much a day of eating fat (I mean my day's worth of good fats) will impact on the evening training. Hmmm....

Mike wrote:Anyway now your on the squad I'm sure your coach will have you doing lots of energy system specific training such as fast intervals for anaerobic syste and maximal swimming for your ATP-PCr system. The end result (after a consistent offseason) should be a faster time. Add to that some strength training for your lower body to add more power into your leg action and I bet you'll be outperforming the kids in no time. The kids being younger doesnt neccessarily put them at an advantage, theyre physiology is still developing, they may be dealing with social issues, psychological etc etc etc.

Not sure if your squad has a team psychologist, but I would fully recommend this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Guide- ... 364&sr=8-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the title is deceptive as its about sport psychology and offers, in plain english, methods of incorporating the science into your training to make a difference.

Anyway thats enough from me, congrats once again and good luck.

Thanks again Mike!

Yes, our coach is pretty switched on and we do have a lot of fast intervals as well as lactate tolerance/production training and steady state which we use mainly for warm up/cool down and technique work. He also focuses a lot on kick sets to improve our leg strength and efficiency in the water, and all of this combined does make a huge difference. I must say his programme and his approach is awesome, and I've got the utmost respect for the way he does things (except after lactate training when I HATE him! LOL).

It's funny you say about the kids being younger not necessarily being an advantage. I'm pretty much on my PBs that I held when I was 16, and I couldn't work out why. I guess the fact my body is fully developed, psychologically I am much stronger, and I simply have more determination (aka stubborness) and drive has a lot to do with it. Not only that, but my diet is way better than it was then. I cringe when I think about it and wonder how on earth I did as well as I did!!!

Will take a look at that book...very interested in sports psychology, and I need all the help I can get in combatting the nerves on race day!!!!
-Its a good book. For competitive anxiety you want to focus on PMR (progressive muscular relaxation) takes a little practice but is really very good. and also imagery - basically mental rehearsel of the event before it happens, so when it does, you have already experienced it and will/should be calmer. Both have helped me and 100's of high level athletes. I'm sure if you google both you'll find instructions etc on both.

Mike wrote:....you wouldnt, because coconut contains MCT's and although are classified as saturated fats actually are utilized in the same way as carbs in the body so will be used almost immeadiatly. Some high level athletes use MCTs before an event to try and preserve carbohydrate stores. some science says it works, some says theyre no better off than if they carb loaded.

Mike wrote:Its a good book. For competitive anxiety you want to focus on PMR (progressive muscular relaxation) takes a little practice but is really very good. and also imagery - basically mental rehearsel of the event before it happens, so when it does, you have already experienced it and will/should be calmer. Both have helped me and 100's of high level athletes. I'm sure if you google both you'll find instructions etc on both.

Craig wrote:Easiest way is for Pingu to try it both ways for a while, I have tried both ways and am 100% sure on whats better for body comp by a mile, we could argue theory for ever but we both know how often the theory is total BS.