This is gonna be a long read but it would be alot of help to me if you read it all and helped me in what ever way you could.

Currently researching into different forms of training in relation to powerlifting for personal training (think of it as a 'personal' personal training, just like Bio-Signature Modulation can be worked for that trainee, Im trying to find out if there is a possible way to do the same but with training), focusing more into muscle fiber types.

As well as a few other program types Im trying, the main one at the moment is if ME and/or DE work is actually neccassery, or if only doing one (dependent on dominant muscle fiber type) will result in the same benefits as if doing both.


Now im sure most of you are going to say that finding out which of the two types of muscle fiber type the individual has is technically impossible (besides the simple sargeant jump test, which revolves around the higher you jump.. the more fast twitch you have AND also sprinters tend to have high amounts of fast twitch then low twitch).


So.. the actual question I am going to ask is, bare with me here.. might seem like a simple and stupid question but I'd rather ask and know then of not asked and not be sure, is it possible to increase the amount of fast twitch fibers in the motor pool? I no you can increase the amount of slow twitch by doing aerobic exercise (reason why your fitness increases the longer you train e.g. running 3 times a week for 4 weeks would mean at the end of the 4 weeks you would be able to run for longer then you could at the beginning). But, im not entirely sure if you can increase the fast twitch, while from what I've reason you can't but that leads me to anther question as how come your explosive power increases if you aren't able to increase the amount of those fibers you have, unless you more you train them the more are recruited until you reach the threshold where they are all being stimulated.



Now, some of you might write a long post explaining how it isnt possible and all this and that but I would rather research it and find out for my self then some one tell me, I would learn alot more reading obsolete journals and research papers then if some one put me in my place with the facts now!

So can I ask if you know the answer to just tell me, or if you have any insight into it then please help. I plan to do a paper on it for college in an attempt to gain more marks so I can be picked to do my YMCA lvl 3 personal training at the end of the course.


It was a long read but thanks if you did it

A good question MJ. My understanding is that type I slow fibers are more prone to increase in quantity where as type IIa and IIb(x) fast twtich fibers are more prone to increase in size. I have a few studies somewhere which I'll post up when I find them.

For general info on muscluar physiology relating to weight training, the following articles are good and have a load of references worth chasing up if you want to really get into it (loads of reading here!);

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/theanatomyofamuscle.php
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/physiolo ... ilding.php
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/physiolo ... lding2.php

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/musclefibers.php
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/musclefiberspart2.php
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/musclefiberspart3.php

Cheers buddy! (dunno why I keep saying that now)..

All book marked for a rainy day hehe, which will probably be tomorrow

I was expecting the first responce of some one calling me an idiot

Hopefully this post has shown people I am not a complete and utter nimcompoop (did I even spell that correctly?)

Brains FTW!

MJWild wrote:Now im sure most of you are going to say that finding out which of the two types of muscle fiber type the individual has is technically impossible (besides the simple sargeant jump test, which revolves around the higher you jump.. the more fast twitch you have AND also sprinters tend to have high amounts of fast twitch then low twitch).

Try this approach: find your maximum performance for one rep on a lift using a 4010 tempo.

Here is an illustration regarding how this test would work. If you can bench press 100 kg, wait 10 minutes then do as many reps as possible on a 40X0 tempo with 85% of that weight (in this case, 85 kg). If you have “average fibre” distribution, you will do 5 RM. If you are "fast-twitch" you will do fewer than five reps. If you are "slow-twitch" you will do more than 5 reps.

There is a slightly better modified way of doing this, but you'd need me to do it

Muscle Fibre types: there's actually a few more than 3 by the way; over 40 apparently!

does 4010 mean 4 second negative, 0 pause, 1 second press, 0 pause ?

yes

But Matt why are you trying to change your training and make it EVEN MORE complicated! Just train basically and you will gain strength, if you want to do it faster than most then get some pins!

curtis wrote:But Matt why are you trying to change your training and make it EVEN MORE complicated! Just train basically and you will gain strength, if you want to do it faster than most then get some pins!

stfu would you.. I asked for some one not to post anything like this!

Curiosity boy.. Why do things that don't need to be done, you can spend the time doing other things. And how the hell is changing a routine from ME/DE to just either ME OR DE more complicated? if anything its simpler. I am not doing this for my self I am doing it for other people, like Bio-Signature Modulation can be set for an individual I wont to find out if a training style can be done the same way.

MJWild wrote:

curtis wrote:But Matt why are you trying to change your training and make it EVEN MORE complicated! Just train basically and you will gain strength, if you want to do it faster than most then get some pins!

stfu would you.. I asked for some one not to post anything like this!

Curiosity boy.. Why do things that don't need to be done, you can spend the time doing other things. And how the hell is changing a routine from ME/DE to just either ME OR DE more complicated? if anything its simpler. I am not doing this for my self I am doing it for other people, like Bio-Signature Modulation can be set for an individual I wont to find out if a training style can be done the same way.

Simple put yes if your fast twich dominant (using Scotts test) you need to train differently to a mixed fibre individual, strength work will build mass on a FT dominant individual it won't really do the same on a mixed fibre type. Lower reps are need for hypertrophy too for a FT individual, than for a mixed fibre type. For example 20 rep squats work great for the mixed fibre trainee's but will make a FT dominant trainees legs smaller!

Craig wrote:Simple put yes if your fast twich dominant (using Scotts test) you need to train differently to a mixed fibre individual, strength work will build mass on a FT dominant individual it won't really do the same on a mixed fibre type. Lower reps are need for hypertrophy too for a FT individual, than for a mixed fibre type. For example 20 rep squats work great for the mixed fibre trainee's but will make a FT dominant trainees legs smaller!

Cheers bud, that was alot of help. Also while the intelligent and helpful people are reading I might as well ask another question.

I read some where that different muscle's have different amount of fiber types so they respond better to certain rep and weight ranges.

eg. bicep and calf muscles are fast twitch (as far as im aware) so they respond better to lower rep heavy weight.

So to check this I could do the rep test (80% of 1rm) more reps you do the more slow twitch you are.


Cheers guys, you've been alot of help.

(this might explain why my bench increased so much when I was doing volume training, slow twitch fibers)

Edit: forgot the question I was gonna ask What exercises would be best to test this?

prime exercises.. for powerlifter

squats
bench
deadlift


exercises for bodybuilder

bicep curl,
tricep pushdown,
hamstring curl,
leg extensions,
reverse hyper (a bit wary (sp?) on this one, better then regular hyper though),
shrugs,
calf raises,
weighted crunch,
chest flyes? (deno)
T-Row/Cable Row/Bent Over Row?

not sure on which shoulder exercise though

Any one?

MJWild wrote:

Craig wrote:Simple put yes if your fast twich dominant (using Scotts test) you need to train differently to a mixed fibre individual, strength work will build mass on a FT dominant individual it won't really do the same on a mixed fibre type. Lower reps are need for hypertrophy too for a FT individual, than for a mixed fibre type. For example 20 rep squats work great for the mixed fibre trainee's but will make a FT dominant trainees legs smaller!

Cheers bud, that was alot of help. Also while the intelligent and helpful people are reading I might as well ask another question.

I read some where that different muscle's have different amount of fiber types so they respond better to certain rep and weight ranges. yes its individual

eg. bicep and calf muscles are fast twitch (as far as im aware) so they respond better to lower rep heavy weight.

Calf are generally slow twitch but its individual

So to check this I could do the rep test (80% of 1rm) more reps you do the more slow twitch you are.


Cheers guys, you've been alot of help.

(this might explain why my bench increased so much when I was doing volume training, slow twitch fibers)

Edit: forgot the question I was gonna ask What exercises would be best to test this?

Isolation exersices you need to test one muscle at a time!!!

prime exercises.. for powerlifter

squats
bench
deadlift


exercises for bodybuilder

bicep curl,
tricep pushdown,
hamstring curl,
leg extensions,
reverse hyper (a bit wary (sp?) on this one, better then regular hyper though),
shrugs,
calf raises,
weighted crunch,
chest flyes? (deno)
T-Row/Cable Row/Bent Over Row?

not sure on which shoulder exercise though

isolate each mucle as much as possible to test so; leg extensions, peacher curls, tri press downs etc

If you test two muscles at once one will cloud the results of the other.

Ah ok, what shoulder exercise though? 3 heads and any iso exercise tend to work 1 head at a time.


I see testing for fiber types for compound exercises useful for powerlifters (like my self) as we tend not to use one muscle at a time, more a few dozen.

MJWild wrote:Ah ok, what shoulder exercise though? 3 heads and any iso exercise tend to work 1 head at a time.


I see testing for fiber types for compound exercises useful for powerlifters (like my self) as we tend not to use one muscle at a time, more a few dozen.

seated shoulder press but test tri's first so you know if they are interfering with the results, TBH mate most peoples bodys are either mixed, slow dom, or fast dom and the whole body bar the calfs follow suit. I'm all fast twitch apart from my calfs and tris.

MJWild wrote:I read some where that different muscle's have different amount of fiber types so they respond better to certain rep and weight ranges.

eg. bicep and calf muscles are fast twitch (as far as im aware) so they respond better to lower rep heavy weight.

there are no "calf" muscles. There is a gastrocnemius & soleus. Both have different muscle fibre type make-up due to the way they work in the body.

Muscle biopsies and autopsies have revealed that the soleus is composed of approximately 88 percent slow-twitch muscle fibers, which means they are built for endurance and therefore will respond better to higher reps.

The gastrocnemius however is generally composed of approximately 60 percent fast-twitch muscle and responds best to sets that can be completed in approximately 20-40 seconds.

Now you just need to figure out what exercises hits those muscles

I know what exercises just need to work out how to do one of them.

I was getting at what exercises hit the gastroc more. And what exercises hit the soleus more. Standing calf raises are no good for one of them

health4ni wrote:I was getting at what exercises hit the gastroc more. And what exercises hit the soleus more. Standing calf raises are no good for one of them

and seated for the other

I know Thats what I ment, the soleus is a pulling movement (forgive my simplicity), when the toes go up. Finding a movement like that would do the job, but its just working out how to do it.

Scott, I thought that sort of fibre test was only really an indicator for untrained individuals?

I'm going to give it a quick go at the weekend. I've thought that perhaps i'm more FT dominant as I seem to respond better to 6 reps or so rather than higher stuff - although recently I have seen growth from the higher reps in HST so I could well be mixed.

MJWild wrote:I know Thats what I ment, the soleus is a pulling movement (forgive my simplicity), when the toes go up. Finding a movement like that would do the job, but its just working out how to do it.

Search again bro

I was thinking of the tibialis anterior, ehrm..

deep stretch donkey raises?

MJWild wrote:I was thinking of the tibialis anterior, ehrm..

deep stretch donkey raises?

soleus is activated by seated calf raises

gastrocnemius by straight leg variations

Wardie wrote:Scott, I thought that sort of fibre test was only really an indicator for untrained individuals?

I'm going to give it a quick go at the weekend. I've thought that perhaps i'm more FT dominant as I seem to respond better to 6 reps or so rather than higher stuff - although recently I have seen growth from the higher reps in HST so I could well be mixed.

afaik the gastroc & soleus tend be very similar in most people. Tis the nature of what they do. Just like the abs. Others muscles very more. Someone may have more FT fibres in certain muscles than in other muscles, yet be on the whole a more slow twitch muscle dominant person.

Didn't go to the various links so apologies if this was covered already.

Don't forget that Type II fibres are subdivided into various categories that have different properties - Bascially scale goes something like:


IIC - IIAC - IIA - IIAb - IIAB - IIaB - IIB



With training transfromation does take place. Typically movement of fibre types goes from IIb to IIab to IIa.

Aerobic training can move some types of IIa fibres towards IIc fibres - this it seems is why increased aerobic activity will impove endurance. But I haven't sver seen anything that suggestes the revres is true - i.e type IIc fibres move to type IIa fibres with strength/resistance training.

From what I've seen it isn't at all clear to what extent muscle fibre remodelling contributes to muscle strength. However the change of Type IIb to type IIA may contribute to force production - So teh more IIA you have potentially the stronger you will be.

I guess one thing to take from this is that it is not just your split of type II to type I fibres, but what type of Type II fibres your have. With training you can change IIB to IIA - which is helpful with strength - but if you have a lot of IIC then there's less adaption.