DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Whether its the treadmill, HIIT, Plyometrics, skipping or sled pulling....ask\put it here!

Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby health4ni on Thu May 29, 2008 8:25 am

I don't do cardio. I work my ass off when lifting weights. I sometimes do HIIT. And am probably the leanest here. Yes diet & genetics help, but if I didn't train I wouldn't be as lean ;)

tbh "cardio" is ok OUTSIDE of the gym. Go for a walk, gardening etc etc. I cannot see the point in going to the gym to do steady state low intensity cardio. Resistance training & HIIT only imo.
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby julesm on Thu May 29, 2008 8:29 am

scott the guys over on t-nation refer to what your saying as NEPA- non exercise physical activity.
i think it is psychologically easier to go to the gym and put yourself on a machine and cruise for an hour, and at the heart rate that is being encouraged you can read a book whilst on the treadmill or bike (but not in the pool)
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby Rab on Thu May 29, 2008 8:52 am

Iv'e been ensuring that i do some short jogs of between 1.5-3 miles at a steady pace recently. Its something i didnt used to do but i will be keeping it. It helps make you fitter in a way you dont get from weight training alone and is something worth doing imo.

Ive been enjoing the HIIT aswell. Somehting i want to keep up maybe once every 10 days or so with the sprints.
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby health4ni on Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:24 pm

Apparently...

  • Cardio increases Cortisol; you use Pregnenalone that was meant to make testosterone so it is like castrating yourself.
  • Cardio is oxidising - it ages the brain. Cortisol ages the brain through oxidation.
  • Cardio changes fast myosin to slow myosin
  • Cardio uses amino acids from the amino pool; so it reduces recovery.
  • Cardio worsens the force time curves; after 6 weeks the aerobic enzymes plateau. Thus after 6 weeks no improvements.

So if you do cardio make sure to "protect" yourself with correct & adequate Peri-nutrition (I hear BSD do a good line in such products ;) )
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby kp1512 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:26 pm

I think also though that cardio has a purpose when people are using it to get in shape for a specific time period

I am not going to say its totally healthy nor that it doesnt release cortisol....we all know it has the potential to eat away at muscle...but if someone wants to get cut, lose fat etc within say 12 weeks...then if you was to compare an approach with NO cardio, to WITH....id be willing to stake some cash that the WITH cardio (with correct pre intake of amino) will give better and faster results.....?
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby health4ni on Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:34 pm

for the average person who has little commitment, maybe. They'd lose muscle mass too.

With no cardio but strict attention to a strict diet, and correct weight training & some interval training, then I reckon the body comp will be better with no cardio. BUT they have to be strict as hell with food. And not many are willing to do that.

I should say though:
(a) if the person is getting fit for a sport then doing the most appropriate sports specific cardio is worth doing to some degree anyway
(b) that there's always going to be a place for some type of cardio, but regular cardio that most people at gyms do is generally useless - just look at them; they never get any leaner.
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby Karlos on Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:29 pm

Why starve your muscles and metabolism when cardio will crank up your metabolism, burn fat directly and through epoc, help recover CNS, increase blood circulation (recovery), induce vascular improvements which will support muscle growth...the list is extensive and although you have listed some negatives also, i have my doubts whether 30-40 mins 3 times a week or whatever would lead you to physiologically 'castrating yourself' or significantly aging your brain..we're not marathon runners 'ere.

Im very much pro-cardio now btw. :D
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby ollie on Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:19 pm

Another one here.

Apart from all the negatives, cardio does have a number of positive psychological, fitness and health related benefits.

A lot of what cardio provides can be achieved through weight training but for an overall sense of wellbeing I think it's important for most people.
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby health4ni on Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:14 pm

Karlos wrote:Why starve your muscles and metabolism when cardio will crank up your metabolism
I think resistance training and High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) does this better.

Karlos wrote: burn fat directly and through epoc
for EPOC HIIT has been proven to do this better than standard cardio. That's kinda the whole point of HIIT.

And resistance training IS HIIT but with a greater load.

Karlos wrote:help recover CNS
possibly. I really don't know about this one. I would've thought though that simply finishing a workout and refuelling with correct nutrition would do this??

Karlos wrote:increase blood circulation (recovery)
I guess. But at the expense of increasing cortisol. Plus I assume you mean doing this after a resistance training/HIIT session? Surely a 5min "cool-down" will do this.

Karlos wrote:induce vascular improvements
never heard of this one specifically from just cardio. Surely all exercise does this? And with resistance training & HIIT it'll do it better since the muscles & vascular system are working harder under greater loads.

Karlos wrote:also, i have my doubts whether 30-40 mins 3 times a week or whatever would lead you to physiologically 'castrating yourself' or significantly aging your brain..we're not marathon runners 'ere.
ah yes, I agree to an extent. BUT I never said my negatives were directed purely at those that do cardio 3-4 times per week for 30-40mins. The negatives are most definitely more relevant to those people that do cardio all the time and for prolonged periods. So there's a scale of severity if you like. But then why "waste" (imo) 3-4 sessions per week doing cardio when you could do HIIT instead (or more resistance training).

Karlos wrote:Im very much pro-cardio now btw. :D
I see ;)

Good to have discussions.

I'm not saying never ever do cardio. Just imo it's not the best most appropriate way to get lean and stay healthy for the majority of people that train. For very obese people starting off with cardio is probably a good idea. Get some excess weight (fat & muscle probably) off by slowing increasing fitness levels then start resistance training and HIIT.
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby kp1512 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:17 pm

Health

EPOC is slightly flawed....

Its been proven that the actual calories burned Post are not as many as previousl thought. Also, another point that comes into play is how EPOC would benefit for fat burn when someone then goes off an consumes a load of carbs?...cant recall if I posted this here...but there was a study which compared EPOC and it was like something silly burned..extrat 20-30 cals over 8 hours or something silly
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby health4ni on Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:55 pm

^^ Just 1 study though?

Well, I don't do cardio and I'm lean. And don't do cardio with any of my clients and they're getting there. Then again i don't think they'd appreciate me standing next to them for 1hr while they run on the treadmill doing cardio lol

I'd personally, and with my clients, build more muscle to increase metabolism and help burn off fat that way. They also look better for it; more muscle helps them look more toned and a better shape. It helps with their daily tasks too which if involve some form of exertion is usually anaerobic right; a client commented to me on Friday how the training he's been doing helped him to lift his 64kg BBQ into the back of his trunk.
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby Karlos on Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:23 pm

I wasn't in any way saying hiit isn't good, its obviously much more effective than cardio in every way, the big problem is that it's very draining, its like another stressful resistance session and for me who is already working legs twice a week 2 extra interval sessions would hack into my recovery massively! Whilst ss cardio at a moderate intensity actually helps me recover.
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby health4ni on Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:26 pm

so you use it mostly for recovery? mmm maybe a 30min good stretching session will be of more benefit?? or an alternative to use sometimes anyway.

do you really think it's helps recovery? or cos it helps to "loosen" the legs you think it helps? I'm just asking here, not being funny or nowt.
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby Karlos on Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:35 pm

No i wasn't saying i'm using it solely for recovery..i was just pointing out why a bit of steady state suits me more than hiit. Im doing it more for some fat loss, but im also doing 1 10min hiit session (after Max effort deadlifts/squats) and some higher rep front squats.

How would you fit hiit into a powerlifter's schedule of-
mon- heavy upper
wed- heavy lower + HIIT
fri- light upper & lower

?

oh and currently im doing a 40 minute jog tue,thur and saturdays.

I put the hiit session after heavy squats to give my CNS a rest as both are obviously quite draining. Or would you just suggest i rest tue,thur,saturdays and sundays?
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby ollie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:38 pm

I think the point with cardio is that for most of us it's a necessary evil for fat loss.

Yes - it increases cortisol levels, but broadly in a similar way to weights training - i.e. it can be mitigated and controlled. So the key is not to overdo it. If you lifted weights for 90 minutes 5 days a week you'd inevitably suffer, just as you would if you went running for that sort of period 5 times a week.

Proper supplementation - vitamin C, BCAAs, fish oil, phosphatidylserin, ALCAR, zinc - particularly upon waking and at bedtime (consistently shown to be times when cortisol levels are elevated), and an insulin spike post workout can all mitigate cortisol levels.

Dieting alone raising cortisol levels anyway, so for fat loss you're screwed either way.
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby health4ni on Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:02 pm

@Karlos: I will answer your Q's tomorrow ;)

ollie wrote:I think the point with cardio is that for most of us it's a necessary evil for fat loss.
I honestly don't think it is though; not pre-planned cardio (going for a walk in the country or something is different).
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby Karlos on Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:17 pm

OK H4NI, eagerly awaiting your thoughts. :)
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby Tall on Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:44 pm

kp1512 wrote:Health

EPOC is slightly flawed....

Its been proven that the actual calories burned Post are not as many as previousl thought. Also, another point that comes into play is how EPOC would benefit for fat burn when someone then goes off an consumes a load of carbs?...cant recall if I posted this here...but there was a study which compared EPOC and it was like something silly burned..extrat 20-30 cals over 8 hours or something silly


Bump for that study.

Substrate usage is different between untrained fatties and trained athletes, athletes are able to utilise CHO while still oxidising lipids.

Let me see if I can drag a mate of mine over here, some days I'm just too lazy to explain stuff :D
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby kp1512 on Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:47 pm

Tall wrote:
kp1512 wrote:Health

EPOC is slightly flawed....

Its been proven that the actual calories burned Post are not as many as previousl thought. Also, another point that comes into play is how EPOC would benefit for fat burn when someone then goes off an consumes a load of carbs?...cant recall if I posted this here...but there was a study which compared EPOC and it was like something silly burned..extrat 20-30 cals over 8 hours or something silly


Bump for that study.

Substrate usage is different between untrained fatties and trained athletes, athletes are able to utilise CHO while still oxidising lipids.

Let me see if I can drag a mate of mine over here, some days I'm just too lazy to explain stuff :D


You mean a higher ratio of CHO - possibly but alot depends on what they consumed prior to the activity.
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby Tall on Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:56 pm

Ok "depending on what they are before" Are we talking fed state or fasted prior to cardio?

Carb consumption for EPOC - are talking post exercise or during exercise?

It's late and I'm tired so you have to be nice to me :D
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby kp1512 on Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:57 pm

Tall wrote:Ok "depending on what they are before" Are we talking fed state or fasted prior to cardio?

Carb consumption for EPOC - are talking post exercise or during exercise?

It's late and I'm tired so you have to be nice to me :D


Yeh I mean what they had, there blood glucose, etc
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby Tall on Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:07 pm

kp1512 wrote:
Tall wrote:Ok "depending on what they are before" Are we talking fed state or fasted prior to cardio?

Carb consumption for EPOC - are talking post exercise or during exercise?

It's late and I'm tired so you have to be nice to me :D


Yeh I mean what they had, there blood glucose, etc


Ok.

The short answers are:

Fed state cardio is always superior, although untrained athletes may see benefits from fasted low impact cardio.

Untrained athletes and fatties always throw a curve ball in studies, their bodies are not efficient at burning energy substrate (they are better at storing it) so you need to ignore any studies from In. J. Obs. etc which will say EPOC gives no benefits after 24hours. I'm sure in trained subjects EPOC is significantly pronounced even after 36hours.

But bump for that study on EPOC. There are studies, and then there are studies. :D
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby burningnun on Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:01 am

Karlos wrote:No i wasn't saying i'm using it solely for recovery..i was just pointing out why a bit of steady state suits me more than hiit. Im doing it more for some fat loss, but im also doing 1 10min hiit session (after Max effort deadlifts/squats) and some higher rep front squats.

How would you fit hiit into a powerlifter's schedule of-
mon- heavy upper
wed- heavy lower + HIIT
fri- light upper & lower

?

oh and currently im doing a 40 minute jog tue,thur and saturdays.

I put the hiit session after heavy squats to give my CNS a rest as both are obviously quite draining. Or would you just suggest i rest tue,thur,saturdays and sundays?


IMO for a powerlifter sled dragging is the best form of GPP/cardio/metcon/whatever you want to call it. It is the most sport specific in that it builds leg strength and it has no eccentric phase which makes it better than running for assisting recovery. There are also various ways you can do it all of which fulfill the above criteria and also allow you to target specific weak points on your legs. It's one of the bigger things I miss about training at home. Dave Tate wrote a good article about programming it which can probably be found on EliteFTS and I seem to remember it was on T-Nation too.

Downside is you need a sled.
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby kp1512 on Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:05 am


Ok.

The short answers are:

Fed state cardio is always superior, although untrained athletes may see benefits from fasted low impact cardio.

Untrained athletes and fatties always throw a curve ball in studies, their bodies are not efficient at burning energy substrate (they are better at storing it) so you need to ignore any studies from In. J. Obs. etc which will say EPOC gives no benefits after 24hours. I'm sure in trained subjects EPOC is significantly pronounced even after 36hours.

But bump for that study on EPOC. There are studies, and then there are studies. :D


Superior for what though?
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Re: DO NOT KILL CARDIO Thread!

Postby health4ni on Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:11 pm

Here's a good'un for you:

Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism wrote:Tremblay A, Simoneau JA, Bouchard C.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8028502

Metabolism. 1994 Jul;43(7):814-8.

Physical Activity Sciences Laboratory, Laval University, Ste-Foy, Quebec, Canada.

The impact of two different modes of training on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism was investigated in young adults who were subjected to either a 20-week endurance-training (ET) program (eight men and nine women) or a 15-week high-intensity intermittent-training (HIIT) program (five men and five women). The mean estimated total energy cost of the ET program was 120.4 MJ, whereas the corresponding value for the HIIT program was 57.9 MJ. Despite its lower energy cost, the HIIT program induced a more pronounced reduction in subcutaneous adiposity compared with the ET program. When corrected for the energy cost of training, the decrease in the sum of six subcutaneous skinfolds induced by the HIIT program was ninefold greater than by the ET program. Muscle biopsies obtained in the vastus lateralis before and after training showed that both training programs increased similarly the level of the citric acid cycle enzymatic marker. On the other hand, the activity of muscle glycolytic enzymes was increased by the HIIT program, whereas a decrease was observed following the ET program. The enhancing effect of training on muscle 3-hydroxyacyl coenzyme A dehydrogenase (HADH) enzyme activity, a marker of the activity of beta-oxidation, was significantly greater after the HIIT program. In conclusion, these results reinforce the notion that for a given level of energy expenditure, vigorous exercise favors negative energy and lipid balance to a greater extent than exercise of low to moderate intensity. Moreover, the metabolic adaptations taking place in the skeletal muscle in response to the HIIT program appear to favor the process of lipid oxidation.


That study cost 2million Canadian dollars. All to establish that HIIT is better for fat loss than cardio type training.
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