Hi all.

I’ve been following Scott’s training plan that he devised which has been working out beautifully. The intention was to drop some BF and keep or possibly gain some lean muscle.

Well, my water retention is way down, definitely looking leaner – vascularity has improved significantly. For example, at the gym over the weekend I could see the cephalic vein from the elbow all the way up my bicep to the front of my shoulder – it was astonishing as I’ve never really been that vascular and never noticed it before (I normally wear long sleeves at the gym and seldom take off my sweatshirt). I’ve lost an inch around the waist, and the serratus is much more visible. Still holding a bit on the “love handles” but overall pretty decent. I can even see some dark patches around the legs which are veins, though only in the right light and very subtle, but that’s encouraging – rec fem is starting to be more prominent now too, as are the different quad muscle groups rather than one lump!

Weight is down to 96kg, but frankly I’m not too upset about that as my strength is still good. Benching 140kg, deadlifting over 200kg, and squatting 150-160kg again – though I haven’t done any big 1RMs for a while, I doubt my DL is better, but my squats will be higher I’m sure. Anyway, that’s all by-the-by, my strength is still good. Sure I’m not as strong as I’ve ever been, but my training was a little sporadic with no direction. Chest is around 46, waist is down to 36 which is fab (don’t know how it got to 37 and legs are sitting happy at 27, calves are up to nearly 16.5, bicep 17.5, forearm over 13.7. So all in all making decent progress.

I plan on doing another go at AGVT as I managed to pack on a good few lbs of lean muscle though admittedly some water and fat too. But, definitely added some decent bulk – however my diet wasn’t as good as it could have been. I will be doing it around March or so. So keeping to the programme I’m on now till then – and undoubtedly head this way for more help after I’ve finished it again! I know that I can become leaner and meaner by following the advice of experts and I’m chuffed to bits, furthermore I’ve learnt how to skip as a result, and realised that I actually love hill sprints! I want to thank Scott for his help, guidance and encouragement – he’s really a top chap and I look forward to getting more feedback and help from him (though he’s rather pre-occupied at the moment!).

So, onto the point of this thread. Last time I did AGVT apart from the mental torment that this sort of training gives, I reckon I didn’t really get my diet sorted enough for the strain that this workout puts on you.

Here are some thoughts which may or may not be right, but I’d be keen for some advice to maximise my gains and minimise fat though I’m happy to accept some.

Heavy training like this causes cortisol clearly, and as such reducing cortisol AFTER work out is important as it is catabolic, yes?

I need to benefit the release of GH when asleep (releases after you fall asleep) to maximise nutrient absorption for better healing/muscle tissue repair etc…

Ensure I get an insulin spike post workout to better deal with the protein I consume.

Ensure I get decent servings of protein throughout the day more regularly – which I do but could do better.

Get some more fats into me as these promote testosterone increases.

Now because it’s quite an intensive programme, my thoughts turn to carbs. I’m a huge fan and advocate of a balance well rounded diet, however as we all know unlike the RDAs that the government recommends for protein intake, 55g per day just isn’t enough, but I think I’d be better off around 150-200g per day at my bodyweight – yes/no? However, the question is how to deal with carbs, whilst generally low, I still get through them (typically via fruits), but for a programme like agvt what would be a good methodology? Higher fat low carb? Or balanced? Or just ignore issues about carbs altogether? It is quite hard to completely remove carbs from your diet and I don’t think it’s all that necessary, certainly for the benefits that insulin brings to the equation (activation of protein synthesis) – however, I’m not overly bothered about fat loss when doing agvt, but would rather keep a status quo for BF% and just aim for lean tissue gains, who doesn’t?! 

Now obviously it’s quite a tough demanding routine, and whilst easting enough calories isn’t an issue I want to eat the best diet I can for this sort of training. High volume is intense, and soul destroyed, but also exhausting.

Now obviously I’m happy to put the preparation in, i.e. mass preparing food as and when needs be, freezing it and taking with me to work.

I guess my question is, what sort of ratios do you think I should look at, and is it worth carb cycling at all or just do what I’m doing, and eat a balanced diet, up the protein a bit more and up the food intake a bit? I don’t eat sweets or chocolate, I don’t drink alcohol (well maybe a couple of units a month – I’m great fun aren’t I?!), I don’t eat simple carbs, all the carb stuff at home is complex, i.e. oats, wholemeal pasta, cous cous, long grain rice. Simple carbs I guess would be milk/yoghurt and fruits and nuts (though they do have protein I know).

I’m probably over thinking this, but it’s fun, and I find it fascinating, and just keen to get the best out of my training. I’ll be supplementing with eeas/bcaas/creatine and the like to aid recovery and so on.

Any thoughts on my machinations?! Bit of a long read sorry!

Well done on your bf% and strength increases. I have used carb cycling and I really rate it in terms of balance, especially if you are planning a training structure which is demanding.

Good work on the fat loss mate. Reckon you'll start playing again soon?

A few ideas/pointers:

PWO carbs aren't really essential as protein/amino acids will create a sufficient insulin spike on their own. If possible look to take in carbs pre and during workout with some form of protein or amino source and leave PWO nutrition alone until about 60 mins after where you eat a solid meal. For me about 20g pre and 20g during of carbs works out ok.

If you're after GH spike during sleep then try to avoid late night carbs where possible.

In terms of macros in general as long as you're eating clean I wouldn't get too concerned about how much fat and carbs you should get in. Look at Protein and EFA content first off and then add he other macros around these. I guess for Protein you'd be looking more towards the 200g end of the scale, perhaps a bit more. EFA's are far more personal but 50g isn't a bad number to be reaching. You probably know already how your energy levels react to different foods so just adjust accordingly between energy levels and how composition is looking in the mirror.

Interesting points, sort of matches what I had researched but needed more 3rd party stimulus.

Yeah I'm happy with the fact that I'm regaining my strength and that my BF has clearly dropped - either that or my veins are getting bigger

I never have carbs in the evening and stick to proteins before bed. Pre I'd be having aminos with a banana and a cup of coffee (obviously not all mixed together!). My dinner is always my lightest meal of the day, but always contains at least 2-3 types of veg, and plenty of fish, chicken or if I'm being naughty beef and/or pork.

My diet is pretty clean I seldom "let myself go" though I'll have a cheat day during the weekends, because I'm human and weak! lol! I do need to up the proteins a little, 200g is easy enough to achieve, I've just been a bit slack on it really. I get plenty of oily fish, avocados and nuts (as well as fish oils) in my diet but other sources of EFAs are easy enough to include, just never really thought about it!

I'd love to start playing again, I'm feeling fitter than ever (though maybe a bit lighter than before) however it's just such a long trek for me (eats up my whole satuday owing to the travel time), and I'm currently working on an NVQ through work and tend to work on it on Saturday as I want to have at least 1 day of rest on the weekend! I miss the boys (I don't miss the injuries though!) and really loved the last season. Let's see how I get on with this course - I may be able to do every other weekend? I need to look into it again.

I hear you on that. Only good think at the moment are the earlier starts with the daylight hours so you still have a bit of an afternoon left. Not played myself since November.

Nice review and am glad it went so well.

Alex wrote:Good work on the fat loss mate. Reckon you'll start playing again soon?

A few ideas/pointers:

PWO carbs aren't really essential as protein/amino acids will create a sufficient insulin spike on their own. If possible look to take in carbs pre and during workout with some form of protein or amino source and leave PWO nutrition alone until about 60 mins after where you eat a solid meal. For me about 20g pre and 20g during of carbs works out ok.

If you're after GH spike during sleep then try to avoid late night carbs where possible.

In terms of macros in general as long as you're eating clean I wouldn't get too concerned about how much fat and carbs you should get in. Look at Protein and EFA content first off and then add he other macros around these. I guess for Protein you'd be looking more towards the 200g end of the scale, perhaps a bit more. EFA's are far more personal but 50g isn't a bad number to be reaching. You probably know already how your energy levels react to different foods so just adjust accordingly between energy levels and how composition is looking in the mirror.

Alex pretty much sums up the comments I was going to make - so I'll just copy and paste!

Cheater!

Any points to add about cortisol supressing post workout or minimising throughout the day? I understand it's importance during a workout and high intensity, it's just at other times I want to minimise it.

Well done William

Two questions.

1) AGVT?

2) Can you post an example of a day/weeks diet?

Resurrected wrote:Well done William

Two questions.

1) AGVT?

2) Can you post an example of a day/weeks diet?

AGVT is advanced german volume training if memory serves me right.

Thanks rather happy with the results - kinda nice bean leaner, but relieved not having lost any strength. But definitely going back to some mass for a bit now I know that I can do the "getting lean" thing.

Advanced German Volume Training. Did it last year, and loved it. Fantastic routine to which I seem to respond well to.

I've posted my diet before and I doubt it's changed much, but it's along the lines of:

Brekkie:
Fresh squeezed fruit juice
Smoothie made of apples, bannanas, blueberries, cinnamon, milk and natural set yoghurt, scoop of protein.
Couple of poached eggs in a wholemeal pitta bread
or
porridge with cinnamon

midday snack
unsalted/unroasted nuts and raisins
fruit of some kind
maybe some oat cakes


lunch
can vary from some mince (beef, tomato sauce, chopped onions, garlic, etc... typical tomatoy beef thing) with some cous cous or wholemeal pasta.
chicken with spinach and avocado with some olive oil.
home made tuna mayo in some wholemeal pittas
and that sort of thing - it varies. Sometimes I have pasta, sometimes I have a big jacket potato with chilli, sometimes a fish pie, it really depends on what I buy or what I make.

afternoon snack
pot of cottage cheese
fruit
or
sardines/mackerel in olive oil
oat cakes

prework out - aminos, black coffee and a banana

post - protein/oat shake

dinner
again this varies a lot.
freshly squeezed lemon juice in water
always 2-3 veggies (mange tout, sugar snap peas, broccoli, spinach, carrots, rocket salad, beetroot etc...)
usually fish, couple of trout/cod/haddock fillets or tuna steaks
Often chicken thighs (much tastier and more nutritious IMO)
The occaisional steak (beef)
Lean pork fillets
Lean mince of some kind
When I'm feeling naughty, some lamb (which I adore).

Before bed:
pea protein shake
handful of nuts

It's a very rough diet - the snacks vary a lot, as do the lunch and dinner courses. AS does breakfast. But it's just an idea. Sometimes I'll have lots of eggs for brekkie, and some oat based cereal/quinoa, heck, sometimes I'll even have a fry up!

Thanks Will.

Nothing to add really...apart from-pea protein??! Bleeeeergh!

Karlos wrote:Nothing to add really...apart from-pea protein??! Bleeeeergh!

Bulk powder's pea protein is A OK. Not like that retched shite the company in Manchester sells

Will wrote:Cheater!

Any points to add about cortisol supressing post workout or minimising throughout the day? I understand it's importance during a workout and high intensity, it's just at other times I want to minimise it.

With a decent diet, with feedings spaced every few hours and carbs mostly low-medium GI I just wouldn't worry about daytime fluctuations in cortisol - with sensible eating it just won't be a problem. As I'm sure you know post workout there are two schools of thought - one that it's a catabolic hinderence to gains and limits adaptation, another that as a stressor it's an essential part of the growth stimulus.

Personally I think the answer lies in the intensity of training and how close you are to overtraining. If pushing it as much as you can then stress hormones are going to be raised beyond any potential hormetic advantage and will do more damage than good. In this case I'd consider carbs PWO worth taking, although you don't need a lot. Too many fast carbs and you'll get a cortisol rebound after the insulin spike, so a blend of fast and lower GI carbs would work well. Not wishing to whore BSD products, but they do a carb blend called GlycoActive that spikes insulin nicely but creates a smooth drop off of blood glucose that should limit any cortisol bounce. Have been trying it and quite like it.

In lesser intensity training the cortisol may provide an adaptation advantage - am not sure but can see the logic of the theory. I just look at it the same way as PWO antioxidants, which have been shown to hinder progress by wiping out the stressor effect of the workout too efficiently in lower intensity exercise, but in higher intensity exercise the damage to muscle is beyond normal coping mechanisms and the increased stress becomes too much and antioxidants suddenly become good to prevent overtraining. I'd look at PWO carbs the same way

Cool so I'm on the right tracks - shit, I must be learning something then!

I haven't added the supps I take, which normally consist of fish oils and vitamains. Occasionally some RR (I need to find some more) and sometimes some Cissus. But in general it's just protein.

Pea protein really isn't that bad IMO - quite enjoy it.

The only sup I'm thinking of is greens - but don't know if I'd really benefit from it much.

I think Greens are well worth a go, especially if your Green Veg is limited. I feel there's also some benefit to using them during/post workout.

Post work out w/ protein? I eat green veg every day on average and twice a day often. But if you thnk it's sensible to have more I shall look into it.

Yeah or i have it during with Amino's depending on what protocol I happen to be following - Amino's, PeptoPro or Whey.

Also take in the morning and pre bed but if you're eating plenty of Greens already then less of a big deal.