If you were to suggest a first time cycle for someone with the following conditions, what would you suggest?

Twelve week cycle to include PCT
Budget of around £30 per week
Happy to do orals or to jab, but if jabbing would want something simple preferably not daily.

Goals - as much retainable lean mass as possible, strength gain a bonus.

The cycle is for someone with about 4 years of trainnig experience, starting at around 85kg bodyweight, roughly 13% b/fat. Doesn't mind gaining a little extra flab but doesn't want to do an eat all in sight bulk.

i just wrote a 10 page reply and it logged me out

i want to cry

bare bones

1 bottle of t400 (test blend. best value. this is what id go for if i wasnt natural)
2xhcg kits
2 boxes of nolva

no clomid for you with your history

extras. dbol kickstart - not expensive and say 30mg a day for 3 weeks. no real liver toxicity issues imo for a healthy person with that little lot

deca or boldenone/equibol. defo worth considering

al of that can be done within budget

dose. if i was to do a course,,,id prefer starting low and building up. dont see the point in doing 500mg from week 1-12. id sart at 200mg the first week and go from there and probably end up hitting above 500mg a week test..net result is the same mg of test over 12 weeks but spaced out at a better schedule imo.

AI - letrozole (femera or femara) can be bought online in pharmac for cheap. 1 strip is enough. i only take if required. a litle water is fine...if it becoms bloat then add it in but no point in takin stuff "just incase" feck that.

oh. dont think on the type of test. much of a muchness. the t400 blendss by some labs is (ment to be) good and pain free mostly. so much better value and alows for less jabs if you arenormal and dont enjoy sticking metal in your muscles. these belnds are usually part enanthate, cyp etc. do the job fine. labs like pro chem are good and there is a few others doing the make kinda stuff. lixus labs is good but a bit nippy with their t400 blends.....so im told

something like

week 1 - 200-300mg test
week 2 - 300-350mg test
week 3 - 350-400mg test
week 4 - 500mg test
week 5 - 500mg test
week 6 - 600mg test
week 7 . . . .

these kinda plans are evolving. no need to be dogmatic about the 12 weeks. if gains still coming then carry on a bit longer. if they stop at week 11 then call it a day....

id personally go with deca too. again start realy low and see how it goes down. ratio of 1:2 deca:test. maybe 2:3. with equibol its more of a 2:3 or 1:1

200mg Test Cyp per week for 10 weeks
30mg d/bol per day for 1st 4 weeks
Letro 1 tab per day after 2nd week

Nolva for pct 20mg per day for 4 weeks

Id also prime yurself for the cycle.....say 4 weeks of really heavy going dieting and getthe fat off. drop a good 10lb and you will be leaner which is good for it plus ready to grow good gunz

simon m wrote:200mg Test Cyp per week for 10 weeks
30mg d/bol per day for 1st 4 weeks
Letro 1 tab per day after 2nd week

Nolva for pct 20mg per day for 4 weeks

Why so low for Det if he want to gain muscle? If shutting yourself down and stiucking pins in id say thats not enough to justify it and make the most of the cycle and its effects on your bodys systems.

Id keep the letro to the side and only use if required and even then....1/2 a tab every other day just...or mon/wed/fri just. keeping diet tight will help more with bloat for most and if det starts at 10% fat with plenty water, veg and good stuff i rehe will be mostly ok without an ai.

Rab wrote:

simon m wrote:200mg Test Cyp per week for 10 weeks
30mg d/bol per day for 1st 4 weeks
Letro 1 tab per day after 2nd week

Nolva for pct 20mg per day for 4 weeks

Why so low for Det if he want to gain muscle? If shutting yourself down and stiucking pins in id say thats not enough to justify it and make the most of the cycle and its effects on your bodys systems.

Id keep the letro to the side and only use if required and even then....1/2 a tab every other day just...or mon/wed/fri just. keeping diet tight will help more with bloat for most and if det starts at 10% fat with plenty water, veg and good stuff i rehe will be mostly ok without an ai.

Isn't det and old fart like me looking for some TRT??? If not, double the test to 400mg. I'd keep letro in as I'm scared of growing breasts as there's a d/bol kickstart.

What you could do for a real big push is:

Weeks 1-4:

30mg DBOL Per Day
600mg test
300mg deca

Weeks 4-10
600mg test
300mg deca

Weeks 10-12
600mg test

Run AI with this as well and HCG in last 2 weeks before PCT to get balls on line

Then PCT

I might do that myself for my blast

What is letro used for?

(I hate reading threads about AAS, PCT, etc as they generally confuse me. It kinda makes me feel like when I first started using forums and was reading terms training and nutrition in general and didn't have a clue what was going on lol)

roadz wrote:What is letro used for?

(I hate reading threads about AAS, PCT, etc as they generally confuse me. It kinda makes me feel like when I first started using forums and was reading terms training and nutrition in general and didn't have a clue what was going on lol)

Letro basically reduces estrogen which can increase in your system when using roids as your body tries to compensate for the increased male hormone testosterone by producing more of the female hormone estrogen. Basically, the body likes to be in balance, so adding in test puts the balance out of kilter.

Without an AI you run the risk of gyno or bitch tits as it was called in my day. Some people are very prone to this and others have no problems, personally, I wouldn't take the risk.

I hope this helps

What you get for the budget depends on how far up the food chain you are, T400 stings like feck, long term not worth the scar tissue. But it is the cheapest mg for mg.

But anyway 500mg of test a week, build up like Rab says as some people get sides such as lose of appetite on higher doeses of gear.

For some its best to bulk on low doses of gear and cut on slightly higher doses, other get little sides off even high doses.

There is not really one rule. Deca and tren = instant gyno for me, yet nothing for others.

I'm helping kit out a small gym in weston which should be ready in earrly november if you want to train and chat Det.

not all the t400's hurt. several do but with the likes of pro chem and a couple of other labs doing the same kinda thing....they are painless*....and you know how much of a gay boy whiney bitch some are about these things labs like black widdow and lixus t400 blends hurt like hell and id avoid ike the plague.

Defo start low. see how you feel and go from there. no point in my mind starting high for that reason plus the first 2 weeks fuk all is happening really...blood levels are jusr risin so 200-300mg or 600mg wont matter in terms of gains

On gyno/bitch tits..it doesnt happen overnight so no need to be taking harsh drugs just incase. first off with gyno you get itchy nips just...this is the warning sign and from there you should start on nolva or letro say. These drugs are harsh (apparently i aint done bloods) on your liptids and im a big beliver in keepin stuf out unless its actually needed

for me....post brits its just gonna be some test and deca. ill continue with letro only because ive been using it to get as dry as possible and i dont want an estrogen rebound which i got the last time....but ill only be using a 1/4 tab every other day just.

* painless as in the oil wont hurt but you will still as a newbie know you have stuck a bit of metal in your muscle

With letro rab, 1/4 tab as you say is nothing and I'm happy with right diet and anciliers to take that, but I understand your concern as well.

Perhaps the best thing to do is just keep test at say 200mg every 5 days? There would be a gradual build up, bit still on the low side. Again, I'm talimg about an old fart like me.

@ Craig, I'll let u know about the T400 as got some yesterday and taking 0.5ml tonight - tight git that I am!

aye that could be a good idea. 200mg every 5 days to start off and see how it goes

Did T400 - painlless into thigh

I've been toying with the idea of 1-Testosterone Cypionate + Boldenone Cypionate + Testosterone Enanthate (or Cypionate). You can brew that @ 300mg/ml, with 100mg of each hormone per ml. 2ml/week or 1ml E4D would probably be pretty good. For about $450 you get 100ml @ 300mg/ml (kits and powders included).

Or you can get one of those super tests and add dbol or drol and that's it

If you can get an hold on exemestane (Aromasin) use it instead of letrozole (Femara). No rebound, better lipid profile and IGF.

Rab wrote:i just wrote a 10 page reply and it logged me out

i want to cry

Oh how I know that pain... always happens to me after writing a shit hot post but never after writing a rambling crappy one!

This cycle isn't actually for me (genuinely), is for someone I'm helping train. Has a level of experience and goals and also the maturity that i think justifies the decision to go darkside. The twelve week limit is due to him going off to Thailand in january and he wants to have finished PCT by then... then after coming back at the end of feb wants to train for a contest sometime in late 2011.

However, should I go darkside next year it would be of similar requirements so am taking notes for myself too... so keep the Det advice comign too! in my case what I've been looking at would be something simple like test e, possibly with a little dbol kick start but not sure... I quite like the idea of simple test only to start with. For me it will be a case of probably doing a first run that's about putting soem mass on, and then afterwards some old fart TRT as per simon m. Would definitely avoid the clomid as Rab suggests.

simon m wrote:Isn't det and old fart like me looking for some TRT??? If not, double the test to 400mg. I'd keep letro in as I'm scared of growing breasts as there's a d/bol kickstart.

What you could do for a real big push is:

Weeks 1-4:

30mg DBOL Per Day
600mg test
300mg deca

Weeks 4-10
600mg test
300mg deca

Weeks 10-12
600mg test

Run AI with this as well and HCG in last 2 weeks before PCT to get balls on line

Then PCT

I might do that myself for my blast

For Darren, the guy I posted this thread for (who I know is reading but too scared to join the forum ), test deca dbol as above is close to what we were thinking... if anyone here has run such a cycle, what sides did you get?

Craig wrote:
I'm helping kit out a small gym in weston which should be ready in earrly november if you want to train and chat Det.

Could be interesting... we should meet up since we are not so far from one another. Are you still in Clevedon? Was born there

Will be back from the states mid november so I might well look to hook up then.

yes. sides...bit of water but nothing daft and a bit of spots on my back..but im very prone to a break out anyway so not surprising. i thin spots are mainly gonna happen if you are prone to that anyways. no shutdown in terms of shrunk balls or any difficulty in recovering despite my very small pct...and infact i made strength gains during and post pct on top of what i got on cycle

Rab wrote:yes. sides...bit of water but nothing daft and a bit of spots on my back..but im very prone to a break out anyway so not surprising. i thin spots are mainly gonna happen if you are prone to that anyways. no shutdown in terms of shrunk balls or any difficulty in recovering despite my very small pct...and infact i made strength gains during and post pct on top of what i got on cycle

Cheers buddy. Shrinking balls is something I think most guys must worry about when going on cycle... certainly in my case am very proud of mine (they are possibly my best feature) and would be looking to ensure I kept things ok down there.

It seems from what ive read that most people recover easy and quickly on their first cycle. obviously some are gonna shut down hard, others hardly at all....i think for whatever reason..i sat more towards the less shut down of the scale..

And...perhaps many of the guys saying they must have been shut down hard and lost everything when they cam e off are the douche bags who eat crap, gain 18lb of water, 10lb of fat and 2lb of muscle.......crash off and dont bother trianing....cos theres no point if you aint on

Ye still in clevedon, mid november is cool as the power cages come 1st week of november. Deca will depend how strongly the guy responds to prolactin, it fecks me up but most people get on ok with it.

This threads really helping me look at my options if I ever do consider to man up and do a cycle. I'm thinking test e only, so I can see what sides and how well I gain on test e as a stand alone, as you done a d-bol kick start, you wouldn't know how you respond/what sides you get from the compounds as you're using both at the same time.

Also, a quick question on PCT. Nolva and clomid. They are anti-e's, yes? Would you use both together, what are the differences between them and why would you use one over the other?

there is drugs like clomid and nolvadex the nip etro in the bud, but dont kill or stop it being produced...just stop it doing some of its dirty work....and for pct can help get things up and running in ways i aint savvy to tbh. Craig or Tart could prob give a good laymans description.

On paper clomid is the best for it, a lot seem to suggest both together is best..but many me inc dont like the sides from clomid....spotty, hot flushed, feel down and crap, cramps. nolva much more mild for me.

ther is drugs like aromasin exemanstane and letrozole that actually stop or kill estrogen all together and are more used during a cycle for water retention but are also suitablee if gyno issues.

with the dbol kick start..you are finished that just as the test is getting a good peak in your blood..but as said...you dont need to kickstart...although i thin you might regret it if yo dont as you wil be wondering when something is gonna happed for your jabs lol as you wait on the test kicking in

health4ni wrote:Lands End to John O'Groats

Haha, yeah... I'd love to do that