suck it and see (as Im reliably told Rab says)....for me anything over 4 weeks and i may as well snort it with an elephant

Indeed, in "Creatine supplementation in health and disease: What is the evidence for long-term efficacy?"

Derave and colleagues question the idea of 'responders' and 'non-responders' in favour of the fact that long term creatine accumulation causes cell membrane transported down-regulation. This is confirmed in other studies I believe.

The studies they reviewed involved 8 weeks of creatine usage in participants who had not previously used creatine.

It takes 8 weeks to see down-regulation in non-trained, previously non-creatine taking peeps.

So what of for peeps like lifters who take it year round. KP has a good idea with the 4 week thinger.

kp1512 wrote:lol its you lot! bad influence! i was innocent before i met you lot!


Yeh 4 weeks max on creapure as well..or whatever variant you want

/ignorant dane mode

Well uhm KP, you're originally asian eh...?
Isn't bukkake like the national sport over there?

/ignorant dane off

about 4g on waking, 4g before bed and around 3g post wo... am I pissing half this down the drain then?

I also find it takes a week or two to really feel any benefit out of it... I'll usually stick on it for about 8-10weeks then take a month or so off.

I'm of it for 8-10 weeks (or however long i'm training for) and then when I take a week off i'll take time off creatine too.

I use cee pre workout and 5g of mono with my meal tea time meal. Mono really blunts my hunger

I have been on mono for many months non stop. Im stopping as of today for a month to see if it makes any difference while off and also if i get a boost when i start with it again

Never been the big on creatine supplementation but I'm currently on 5g pre, 5g post although I'm not so sure the 5g pre really does anything.

However one thing to bare in mind is my red meat consumption it pretty high compared to most so I may well be getting a slow trickle of creatine from this through the day with carbs.

What I have noticed is that I'm more likely to get muscle cramps during sleep after the harder sessions, especially if I've also cardio'd the same day.

i'm being honest when i say i've barely noticed any effects off creatine before until i took creapure off bsd. Water weight increased fast and that never really happened to me before so tells me it must be doing something, can't evaluate properly due to using other supps on top of it.

health4ni wrote:

Alex wrote:What I have noticed is that I'm more likely to get muscle cramps during sleep after the harder sessions, especially if I've also cardio'd the same day.

do you use salt in your PWO shakes? If so, is it good quality natural coloured salt?

No, my salt intake is probably way too low in general.

I used to use rock salt on my steaks in the evening after training which I should really go back to doing.

Think i'll be investigating what effect either creapure/CEE has on my training in a couple weeks time. Plan on maintaining my diet and including Creatine on top so any difference should be a bit more obvious then using a whole host of supps. I'll note it in my journal when i begin using it.
Although im tempted to buy Beta Alanine and couple them both pre and post and see the effects. Maybe one at a time.

Hmm..

Well here's my stack

5g Crea
25g Dextrose PreWO
50g Dextrose PostWO
1-2g Taurine
Electrolytes/salt

Been playin' around with some strategies which are workin' in so far.

slightly digressing, but why is too much calcium not good for men? the minds on avant were pimping it for some time?

agree with the salt consumption in a pwo drink, was an area being researched before i left oz, but they had a few people trialling it

Calcinium?

I thod so too

The National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III) published results that revealed a relationship between people who consume a lot of calcium and people with low levels of body fat. Results of the survey also suggested that the higher the calcium intake, the leaner the individual was. This cross-sectional survey was conducted over a 6-year period (between 1988 and 1994), it followed a complex, four-stage probability sampling scheme designed to represent the entire U.S. civilian non-institutionalized population.

The best source of calcium that promotes fat loss is from food; particularly dairy foods that are rich in protein.

Zemel et al. Regulation of adiposity by dietary calcium FASEB J. 14, pp.1132-1138, 2000.

Benefits of Loading:
Seven participants loaded with creatine (5gm + 20gm glucose 4 x per day) for 5 days. While 8 subjects loaded for the 5 days on a placebo (20gm of glucose). It was randomized and double blind trial. The researchers did not purposely select athletes that had not used creatine previously and had them abstain from using any supplement for 12 weeks before the study.

Results showed that the average "work capacity at fatigue threshold" was higher for the creatine supplemented group than for the placebo group. Their group average power output was greater before fatigue and upon closer scrutiny of the data, the differences were also clearly seen individually. Five (5) of the 7 creatine fed athletes increased their work capacity at fatigue threshold while only one increased in the placebo group.
(Ref:Effect of creatine loading on neuromuscular fatigue threshold. J.Appl.Physiol. 88:109-112. 2000)

A review by Ira Jacobs examined over 100 full research papers published only in peer-reviewed journals where research design was double blind and placebo controlled only. The report showed those subjects with the highest creatine uptake in muscle had the lowest initial, pretreatment concentrations. Where as those with already high creatine levels show little or no change.

Supplementation during exercise periods resulted in increased creatine accumulation and that creatine loading does enhance muscular performance. However, in most reports about performance, there were no simultaneous determination of muscle creatine levels. Indicating that the optimum cellular levels are yet to be established.
(Ref:Dietary Creatine Monohydrate Supplementation.1999 Can.J.Appl.Physiol. 24(6) Dec:503-514)

Furthermore, scientists the University of Bergen, Norway (dept of physiology) have demonstrated that creatine loading enabled sprinters to record faster times.

In a single blind test on 18 sprinters. Either 20 grams of creatine (in divided equal doses) with 20 grams of glucose per day was provided. Or 40 grams of glucose per day (9 sprinters in each group).

The effect of creatine on sprint performance was evaluated in two tests; 1 x 100 meter sprint and 6x60 meter intermittent sprints. Creatine supplementation enabled the sprinters to significantly reduce their 100-meter sprint times from 11.68+/-0.27 seconds down to 11.59+/-0.31 seconds.

additionally, the creatine supplemented sprinters reduced their total time of 6 intermittent 60 meter sprints (45.63+/-1.11 s vs. 45.12+/-1.1 seconds). Sprint velocities were significantly increased in 5 out of 6 intermittent 60 m sprints in the creatine using athletes, suggesting quicker, more efficient energy repletion and greater resistance to fatigue. No improvements were observed in the placebo group.

Creatine increases the availability of energy substrates for performing work, especially at high intensities.
(Ref: Scand J Med Sci Sports. Apr;11(2):96-102, 2001)

Moreover,
High [creatine] within muscle is a must to triggering anabolic effects at the cellular level. However, traditional dosage pattern fails to maintain high muscle creatine concentrations over a longer period of time (6 to 12 weeks). (Ref: Volek, J.S., Duncan, N.D., Mazzetti, S.A., Staron, R.S., Putukian, M., Gomez, A.L., Pearson, D.R., Fink, W.J. and Kraemer, W.J. Performance and muscle fiber adaptations to creatine supplementation and heavy resistance training. Medicine &science in sports and exercise. 31, pp.1147-1156, 1999)

Loading for longer periods, may cause creatine saturation outside the cell that prevents effective muscle uptake for weeks or months (Ref: Ontivers, G & Wallimann, T. In: Mol & Cell Biochem. 184, pp.27-437, 1998.

Finally, small maintenance dose is futile at maintaining high muscle creatine concentrations. Using a small dose after loading ensures that high muscle creatine concentrations disappear within 6 weeks. (Ref: Clinical Science (2003) 104, (153–162) (Printed in Great Britain) Effects of creatine loading and prolonged creatine supplementation on body composition, fuel selection, sprint and endurance performance in humans)

This recent study has confirmed that small daily dosages of creatine at 2 grams/day for six weeks, fails to maintain high muscle [creatine] in sedentary individuals.

Creatine loaded into muscles creates high [creatine] levels. however the dose of 2g/day after the loading showed that previously high [creatine] had disappeared within 6 weeks (Clinical Science, 2003). Additionally, training is shown to deplete cellular muscle creatine concentrations, so it is difficult to see how this small dose could maintain levels over time.

I am inclined, based solely on the research to recommend the 5 day loading phase. However, I believe there is even better ways to take creatine which research will soon reveal.

Kinetics of creatine ingested as a food ingredient - Either in aqeuous solution or as a food bar.

Louise Deldicque1, Jacques Décombaz2, Hermann Zbinden Foncea1, Jacques Vuichoud2, Jacques R. Poortmans3 and Marc Francaux1 Contact Information
(1) Institut d’Education physique et de Réadaptation, Faculté de Médecine, Université catholique de Louvain, Place Pierre de Coubertin 1, 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium
(2) Nestlé Research Center, 1000, Lausanne 26, Switzerland
(3) Institut des Sciences de la Motricité, Université Libre de Bruxelles, Avenue Paul Héger 28, 1000 Bruxelles, Belgium

Accepted: 16 August 2007 Published online: 13 September 2007
Abstract The aim of the present study was to test if the consumption of creatine incorporated in food bars modifies creatine plasma kinetics, erythrocyte retention and loss in urine and in feces when compared with its consumption in the form of an aqueous solution (AS). Seventeen healthy young men ingested 2 g creatine either in the form of AS, or incorporated in a protein (PP)- or in a beta-glucan (BG)-rich food bar. Kinetics of plasma creatine was measured for 8-h duration and urinary excretion for 24 h. Then, the subjects received the same treatment thrice a day for 1 week at the end of which creatine contents were determined in erythrocytes and in feces (n = 4 for feces). The three crossover treatments were interspaced by a 40 ± 1.2-day wash-out. Absorption of creatine was slowed down by 8-fold in the presence of BG (P < 0.001) and by 4-fold with PP (P < 0.001) whereas the velocity rate constant of elimination and the area under the curve were not modified. Urinary loss of creatine in the first 24 h following ingestion was 15 ± 1.9% in AS and 14 ± 2.2% in PP conditions (NS), whereas it was only 8 ± 1.2% with BG (P = 0.004). Increase in creatine concentration in erythrocyte was similar in whatever form the creatine was ingested. Creatine seems to be totally absorbed since no creatine or creatinine was detectable in feces. No side effects were reported. In conclusion, ingestion of creatine combined with BG facilitates its retention by slowing down its absorption rate and reducing its urinary excretion.