Josh

Na-Rala is the ultimate GDA mate from experience as well.

In terms of only anti oxidant ALA regular will do a job..but for GDA and all..dont even bother wasting money on any of the others...100mg generaull equates to around 300mg+ of standard ala..

KP

Josh wrote:I have dabbled with Cissus to try to assist the healing of connective tissue in my forearm, running it at c5g.d-1, and it certainly seems to have helped.

I then bumped into a friend of mine who had put on a substantial amount of muscle since I last saw him. He claimed to be running c15.g-1 split over three doses, and was claiming some 15lb gain in bodyweight. I imagine that the majority of that was lean. Anyhow this inspired me to increase my dosing to 15g.d-1. It is still early days yet, so I will let you guys know how the higher dose goes in a week or so.

If it does increase LBM, I would question the assertions in the article regarding its inhibition of the AA ---> Prostaglandin pathway. I was under the impression that this was required for skeletal muscle gain. My gut feeling is that any anabolic effects are primerally mediated via cortisol inhibition. JMHO.

J

I believe most effects are due to anti-cortisol/anti-glucocorticoid properties though there is some speculation that Cissus only inhibits prostaglandin PGE2 (the prostaglandin responsible for muscle catabolism) and doesn't influences prostaglandin PGF2alpha and that would also aid to the muscle building that is reported.

Just as a note, there is a difference between reducing cortisol and inhibiting it to exert its effects. Cissus is a Glucocorticoid Receptor antagonist and it prevents cortisol from exerting its effects but it does not directly reduces cortisol levels (I've not have seen direct info on that), kind of like what a SERM does with the Oestrogen Receptor.

My gut feeling is that any anabolic effects are primerally mediated via cortisol inhibition

Just as a note, there is a difference between reducing cortisol and inhibiting it to exert its effects.

True. I should have been more careful with my wording - I should have said that my gut feeling is that any anabolic effects are primerally mediated via inhibition of signalling through the glcocorticoid pathway.

I believe most effects are due to anti-cortisol/anti-glucocorticoid properties though there is some speculation that Cissus only inhibits prostaglandin PGE2 (the prostaglandin responsible for muscle catabolism) and doesn't influences prostaglandin PGF2alpha and that would also aid to the muscle building that is reported.

Interesting! Thanks - I will look into this.

Cissus is a Glucocorticoid Receptor antagonist and it prevents cortisol from exerting its effects but it does not directly reduces cortisol levels (I've not have seen direct info on that), kind of like what a SERM does with the Oestrogen Receptor.

Whooa there! This is news to me. Why do you believe that cissus contains an GR antagonist? Do you know what type of antagonist it is (competative, non competative, etc). Is it a reversible antagonist? If you have any papers on this, I would love a copy to look over - it is my current focus.

SERMS are SERMS because of tissue specificity.

Cheers,
J

Josh wrote:

Cissus is a Glucocorticoid Receptor antagonist and it prevents cortisol from exerting its effects but it does not directly reduces cortisol levels (I've not have seen direct info on that), kind of like what a SERM does with the Oestrogen Receptor.

Whooa there! This is news to me. Why do you believe that cissus contains an GR antagonist? Do you know what type of antagonist it is (competative, non competative, etc). Is it a reversible antagonist? If you have any papers on this, I would love a copy to look over - it is my current focus.

SERMS are SERMS because of tissue specificity.

Cheers,
J

USP labs have been claiming their research shows this for ages now.

Scott

I took 4 x BSD cissus for 25 days and found my right elbow went from very painful and going 'dead' when trying to press anything significant to being absolutely fine. Also the random sharp pains when i wasnt training stopped.

After about 2 weeks off it I started getting twinges again, nothing like it was before, but enough for me to order more cissus. Ive been back on it about a week now, and again, 100% problem free.

It seems in my case at least (diagnosed as tendonitis by osteopath, but not 'proper' practitioner) i need to keep taking it. However, im running the same dosage for the anti-catabolic effect while dropping weight so im unsure as to how low i could take the dosage to keep the effect on the injury.

health4ni wrote:Thanks Mark.

Thinking about this a bit more it would assume that it's the rebuilding of the joints tissues that cissus helps/accelerates. I haven't seen anything about it being a "pain reducer/blocker". Thus my that rationale after a certain amount the problem area would be healed as much as it's going to be by the body with the help of cissus (and any other specific joint supps).

WELL IT IS READ MORE

I'm no expert on cissus nor on such matters but that is my current take based on what I've read on ESN. Does that make sense to others more in the know about such things?

Thank god your shit hot on your prefered topics

health4ni wrote:lol must've of missed that.
As I said before I've never heard of cissus before ESN. There's very little about it out there (in comparison to most other herbals).

Does it do the other stuff too then? Repair? or just kill pain?

The pain killing comes first, the repair after 2-3 weeks. Most of the research is actually on bone fracture repair which it has been proven with out a doubt to help, the whole tendon thing has only been reported by BB's and has not been researched yet.

If it doesnt heal tendons and im just getting a dumbo and his magic feather effect, its the strongest placebo ive ever experienced

To give a contrast, pre cissus DB pressing something as light as 30kg or 90kg on a Barbell would give me very sharp pains in what felt like my bicep but ive since learned was one of my triceps where it wraps round to the side of the arm and meets the elbow. Being the tough (read stupid) lump that i am, id push on and end up with a dead arm.. it literally would hang uselessly by my side.

With cissus ive DB pressed 50kgs fine and benched 135kg with no hint of pain, and even started to doing proper dips which previously were impossible.

I had thought that it could just be having an anti-inflammatory effect, however a bit of research tells me that Tendonitis is thought to not be a inflammation now and is in fact tears in the tendon. I did read that on the internet tho so it could be rubbish.

Does it do anything besides help with joint pain?

Theres talk of it being anti-catabolic at fairly high doses and also anti-cortisol.. though that confuses me a little, as i cant see how something can be an anti-inflammatory and anti-cortisol.

health4ni wrote:thanks mate.

craig wrote:The pain killing comes first, the repair after 2-3 weeks

what does the research show about how long the repair lasts for? or has that yet to be established?

Also, you seem to be the hot on this research of cissus on ESN hence my questions to you right now rather than read all the research... sometimes there's only so much reading you can do lol. Hope you don't mind

All the evidence is anecdotal about tendon healing, theres just loads and loads of it. In fact theres more research on its anti catabolic effects than its tendon healing!

MJWild wrote:Does it do anything besides help with joint pain?

Sorry MJ missed it:

Possible anabolic
Confirmed anti-catabolic
huge "cissus pumps"
Deep sleep like the dead

hmm ok

health4ni wrote:lol must've of missed that.
As I said before I've never heard of cissus before ESN. There's very little about it out there (in comparison to most other herbals).

Does it do the other stuff too then? Repair? or just kill pain?

As Craig says there is proven research published on it's ability to accelerate healing for bone repair, which is how I became interested in it after a fracture (first read about it in Muscle and Fitness). I am sure I have seen papers on other effects, so I shall abuse my journal access today and see if I can dig anything up.

Re the tendon issues, in my case it is definitely anti-inflammatory and provides pain relief or the fact there is reduced inflammation means there is less pain (or else it's the placebo to end all placebos) because if I miss a dosage or even take it more than 12hours after my last dosing my ankle swells up like a balloon. If I miss a dose, my limp returns and if this is combined with a cold damp day I can't even walk.

Also noticeable increase in vascularity, which makes me wonder if this is directly linked to the anti-i effect.

Josh wrote:

Cissus is a Glucocorticoid Receptor antagonist and it prevents cortisol from exerting its effects but it does not directly reduces cortisol levels (I've not have seen direct info on that), kind of like what a SERM does with the Oestrogen Receptor.

Whooa there! This is news to me. Why do you believe that cissus contains an GR antagonist? Do you know what type of antagonist it is (competative, non competative, etc). Is it a reversible antagonist? If you have any papers on this, I would love a copy to look over - it is my current focus.

Would love to help but the main studies that establish that finding are only available to someone with access to pubmed and similar sites, they were made by an Indian team and were about bone healing. There are some studies made with people with metabolic syndrome (associated with high cortisol levels), some of those are free. Cissus also has ketosterones (steroidal components) and there is a strong connection between steroidal components and anti-GR behaviour so that may shed some light on the anti-GR properties of Cissus (probably a competitive reversible antagonist). Ketosterones may also be the responsible for the connective tissue and cartilage healing.

Nonetheless, Cissus is a saponin rich plant and saponins are known to downregulate the GR which can also explain why people don't get bad cortisol rebounds when stop using it.

@ Health4NI: There are studies on the anti-inflammatory and analgesic properties of Cissus, it seems to act both on a central and peripheral way from the studies conducted, one of the tests was the hot plate with mice so it is reliable.

Use of cissus in treatment of ulcers (not heard of this before but looks interesting)

Journal of Medicinal Food
Effect of Cissus quadrangularis on Gastric Mucosal Defensive Factors in Experimentally Induced Gastric Ulcer—A Comparative Study with Sucralfate
To cite this paper:
Mallika Jainu, C.S. Shyamala Devi. Journal of Medicinal Food. September 1, 2004, 7(3): 372-376. [url]doi:10.1089/jmf.2004.7.372.[/url]



Mallika Jainu
Department of Biochemistry, University of Madras, Guindy Campus, Chennai, India
C.S. Shyamala Devi
Department of Biochemistry, University of Madras, Guindy Campus, Chennai, India

Cissus quadrangularis is an indigenous plant commonly mentioned in Ayurveda for treatment of gastric ulcers. The ulcer-protective effect of a methanolic extract of C. quadrangularis (CQE) was comparable to that of the reference drug sucralfate. Further, gastric juice and mucosal studies showed that CQE at a dose of 500 mg/kg given for 10 days significantly increased the mucosal defensive factors like mucin secretion, mucosal cell proliferation, glycoproteins, and life span of cells. The present investigation suggests that CQE not only strengthens mucosal resistance against ulcerogens but also promotes healing by inducing cellular proliferation. Thus, CQE has potential usefulness for treatment of peptic ulcer disease.

Good find GB.

Worth taking for yet another reason.

Another one on the same topic, this study was done with rats, but its still interesting
Another study, this time using cissus in weight loss management and
metabolic syndrome

GymBunny wrote:Another one on the same topic
same topic, this study was done with rats, but its still interesting
Another study, this time using cissus in weight loss management and
metabolic syndrome

Good find I've been looking for that second study with out success as I've seen it referred to in Flex, worth noting what else was in the formula they used to get the weight loss:

The Cissus quadrangularis formula, Cylaris™, contains a Cissus quadrangularis extract (supplied by Gateway Health Alliances, Inc, Fairfield, California, USA), standardized to contain a minimum of 2.5% phytosterols and a minimum of 15% soluble plant fiber. The formula also consists of a soy albumin extract (supplied by Gateway Health Alliances, Inc, Fairfield, California, USA); a green tea extract standardized to 22% EGCG and 40% caffeine; niacin bound chromium (ChromeMate™ supplied by InterHealth Nutraceuticals, Inc, Benicia, California, USA); selenium standardized to 0.5% l-Selenomethionine; vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine hydrochloride); vitamin B12 (as cyanocobalamin); and folic acid (supplied by Protein Research, Inc, Livermore, California, USA). All active and placebo capsules were manufactured and bottled by Protein Research, Inc.

Participants received two daily doses (514 mg each) of the Cissus formulation or placebo for 8 weeks. Each capsule was taken with 8–12 oz of water immediately prior to meals (preferably breakfast and dinner). In keeping with the experimental design, the capsules were identical in shape, color and appearance, and neither the participants nor researchers knew which capsule was administered. Side effects were noted on each visit.

I'll give you a study:

Been using it (BSD brand) for 1 week. My finds are:

It stinks! so much so that I have to remove the caps from the tub with my left hand or else I can't taste or smell the Nicotine on my right...

It stinks! so much so that when I take a p!ss for the next 3-4 times after taking it my p!ss even stinks of it.

Still too early to tell if it's having any affect on cortisol, but my recently dodgy knees have been better and I am following the dosing for joint health rather than cortisol control.

looks like cissus is really grabbing the news in a very positive light