The recent troubles in the middle east make me embarrassed to be British .

Dictators in Egypt and Libya have been our busom buddies whilst they buy our arms and we buy their oil .
Others who dont play ball have " weapons of mass destruction " and as we liberate them with our western values we forget about that for a moment and allow thier leader to be hanged .

Cameron is on tour talking about peace whilst accompanied by arms dealers


Sorry but for me the Great in Great Britain has been lost

This is true

But what happens if the Saudi peole revolt? Do we support them in their right to freedoms and lelt the country go into anarchy for a period of time...perhaps go into non western sympathetic hands and face £2 per litre petrol and all the increases in everything else that causes...everything rpetty much.

Sticky sittuation all of this!!!

If we didn't provide, then someone esle would and we'd have even more unemployment.

The arms trade is always evil, but one we have always been involved with.

simon m wrote:If we didn't provide, then someone esle would and we'd have even more unemployment.

The arms trade is always evil, but one we have always been involved with.

You could change the words there and apply that to torture?

I think arms trade is something we need to be very careful about and mayb set an example on....but again as you say...if it was your job..

simon m wrote:If we didn't provide, then someone esle would and we'd have even more unemployment.

The arms trade is always evil, but one we have always been involved with.

agree with Simon

We have little choice as the industry is multi billion to the UK

We have limited manufacturing as all our other industries cant compete with cheap asian labour

We could chose to be poorer and less competetive but a moral example.

In respect of myself I've worked for good money before but had issues of conscience about what i was doing (and eventually quit because of it), and also worked for peanuts but had no issues about what I did... personally, I know from personal experience my life has more quality when I have no issues of conscience, even if it means considerably less money.

To be fair though, most people would not agree with me so it's probably an unrealistic thing to assume we could actually stop manufacturing such things as arms - weapons and ammunition are one of the most succesfully capitalist trades there is, as you can only fire a bullet or a missile once before having to replace it with another one....

i remember reading that approximately ten times more money is spent in this world on weapons manufacture and military research than on health and medical care... that seems so backwards in a 'civilised' society, but just goes to show what a huge industry arms manufacture is.

Dtlv74 wrote:We could chose to be poorer and less competetive but a moral example.

In respect of myself I've worked for good money before but had issues of conscience about what i was doing (and eventually quit because of it), and also worked for peanuts but had no issues about what I did... personally, I know from personal experience my life has more quality when I have no issues of conscience, even if it means considerably less money.

To be fair though, most people would not agree with me so it's probably an unrealistic thing to assume we could actually stop manufacturing such things as arms - weapons and ammunition are one of the most succesfully capitalist trades there is, as you can only fire a bullet or a missile once before having to replace it with another one....

i remember reading that approximately ten times more money is spent in this world on weapons manufacture and military research than on health and medical care... that seems so backwards in a 'civilised' society, but just goes to show what a huge industry arms manufacture is.

Morals don't feed your family. Very easy to have them if you only have yourself to look after...

However, I know a couple offellas who've turned down well paid merc contracts as they disagree with the potential employers stance on human rights etc.

simon m wrote:

Dtlv74 wrote:We could chose to be poorer and less competetive but a moral example.

In respect of myself I've worked for good money before but had issues of conscience about what i was doing (and eventually quit because of it), and also worked for peanuts but had no issues about what I did... personally, I know from personal experience my life has more quality when I have no issues of conscience, even if it means considerably less money.

To be fair though, most people would not agree with me so it's probably an unrealistic thing to assume we could actually stop manufacturing such things as arms - weapons and ammunition are one of the most succesfully capitalist trades there is, as you can only fire a bullet or a missile once before having to replace it with another one....

i remember reading that approximately ten times more money is spent in this world on weapons manufacture and military research than on health and medical care... that seems so backwards in a 'civilised' society, but just goes to show what a huge industry arms manufacture is.

Morals don't feed your family. Very easy to have them if you only have yourself to look after...

However, I know a couple offellas who've turned down well paid merc contracts as they disagree with the potential employers stance on human rights etc.

Oh i know what you are saying... but one could chose not to have a family until they knew they could secure that family in a moral way, so the requirement to turn a blind eye to morals would not be relevant to suporting that family.

Also, if everyone upheld that moral ideal no matter what their personal situation then the economy would change to match the public demand.

It is ironic though that someone in the western world might argue the value of working in a weapons industry to support his family knowing full well that his industry is killing other peoples families.

I agree completely that people in sufficient number would not be prepared to make such a change - we do not live in an innovative society, we live in a society where we except what is offered rather than challenge and try to better or change it. Our relative comfort in the western world pacifies us from ever strenously challenging the system.

darnit, maybe I read too much noam chompsky, lol

My view is that scum will always be scum and someone will arm them, I might not like it, but I'd rather our people have a job then be unemployed.

simon m wrote:

Dtlv74 wrote:Morals don't feed your family. Very easy to have them if you only have yourself to look after...

You don't need to work in the arms trade to feed your family though (at least no-one in the UK does)- anyone from the guy packing the crates upwards has skills that would transfer to a number of different industries. You go into the arms trade because you're interested in the subject matter, or money, or both.

Spit wrote:

simon m wrote:

Dtlv74 wrote:Morals don't feed your family. Very easy to have them if you only have yourself to look after...

You don't need to work in the arms trade to feed your family though (at least no-one in the UK does)- anyone from the guy packing the crates upwards has skills that would transfer to a number of different industries. You go into the arms trade because you're interested in the subject matter, or money, or both.

Rab works in the arms sector, where else would he work, what other engineering jobs are there? We make very little in this country, the arms sector is a major employer, without them, we'd have hardly any manufacturing.

plus it needs to be said that who are we to judge the good from the bad?

Weapons to other nations are sold under the premise of defence.

The Western Arms industry will NEVER sell advanced weapons nor will they ever sell anything where they do not enable some kind of kill switches in the devices.

simon m wrote:Rab works in the arms sector, where else would he work, what other engineering jobs are there? We make very little in this country, the arms sector is a major employer, without them, we'd have hardly any manufacturing.

That's a fair point- you're quite right, we don't make anything in this country any more, cheers Maggie... I think our preoccupation with tertiary industry is going to see us stuck in recession a lot longer than countries like Canada (and I work in HR, so fall square into that category).

What I meant more was that no-one in this country is faced with the choice of working in the arms trade or literally starving, as may be the case elsewhere.

KP- I think your use of the word 'premise' says it all... do you genuinely believe that anyone works in the arms trade for reasons of altruism?!

What we should be working on is hydro electric power, wave catches all around the coast of the country. We should also build more ships and have a huge navy, then we could have helped out in Aus and NZ easily when other brotehrs needed us.

Split, HR??? I'd rather be on the front line than be in your job

Spit wrote:

simon m wrote:Rab works in the arms sector, where else would he work, what other engineering jobs are there? We make very little in this country, the arms sector is a major employer, without them, we'd have hardly any manufacturing.

That's a fair point- you're quite right, we don't make anything in this country any more, cheers Maggie... I think our preoccupation with tertiary industry is going to see us stuck in recession a lot longer than countries like Canada (and I work in HR, so fall square into that category).

What I meant more was that no-one in this country is faced with the choice of working in the arms trade or literally starving, as may be the case elsewhere.

KP- I think your use of the word 'premise' says it all... do you genuinely believe that anyone works in the arms trade for reasons of altruism?!

Nope - but do I also believe that we work and pay taxes so we can have a welfare state as I so want to pay for others.......... you can pretty much apply what you say to all industries in some manner. Its just the result of capitalism and survival of the best

Hehe, I am an idealist, and enjoy stirring up threads with idealistic views... but I'm also realistic enough to know that often idealism is no way close to practical, as you'll always find many more people hold different and differing ideals of a different kind.

simon m wrote:What we should be working on is hydro electric power, wave catches all around the coast of the country. We should also build more ships and have a huge navy, then we could have helped out in Aus and NZ easily when other brotehrs needed us.

i agree, alternative energy is something that WILL be a big deal in the future, and is something that could create a lot of money and employment... also, as the market is still relatively new, due to big oil nations dragging their feet, and there is still big oppertunity to research, innovate, and claim a prime position in the market.

We, as a nation, really need to be looking at future technology, and get our foot in the door early as number one players.

I tink up here in Scotlandshire we should be spending as much investmentinto wind and underwater turbine energy as we can...including efficent ways of gettign the energy from up north down to where its needed and also ways of exporting it to teh rest of the UK and Eurpoe

We should also be exploiting more all our water and agricultural land. WHere i am there is nothing but empty fields. nothing growing or grazing.

I think in terms of Arms trade we are doing well right now in my work exporting designs and drawing of ships abroad but goign forward we aint gonna be building as much of it here as the countries want to take advantage of their cheap labour.

After we have finished the aircraft carrier ther needs to be a smoothing out of the peaks and troughs in British ship building as its a skill that once gone, is gone forever.

Rab wrote:I think in terms of Arms trade we are doing well right now in my work exporting designs and drawing of ships abroad but goign forward we aint gonna be building as much of it here as the countries want to take advantage of their cheap labour.

After we have finished the aircraft carrier ther needs to be a smoothing out of the peaks and troughs in British ship building as its a skill that once gone, is gone forever.

Rab - this is the point though - technology should be a leverage to all areas in manufacturing

For example, in the IT industry we have actually reduced in size when it comes to new people joining. Like for like we have lost 50% of people wanting to come into IT in thelast 5 years. Many will say its because of India and Outsourcing - BOLLOX - as that gravy train is done and dusted as people recognise that Offshoring to India in value add services NEVER works.

Wind and Turbine - you guys up there are, if I am not mistaken, the European and world leaders in that area? Gota be ops there

Seems to be going that way mate. few of the main developers have moved here just recently. Thered nothing but fcuking hills, wind rain and water. theres no reason with the right brains on the job we cant be producing much much more energy from natural rescourses than we need! Only issue is the ruining of landscape and the transfer of the power from the Highlands inparticular down to where its needed

Thios fcuker causing the problems.

I really wanna look at training on some civil renewable engineering stuff.

gota be loads of opps in this area mate. Its lookling for innovation and thought..as lets be honest - its going to be big and part of our lives. We crack how to store that energy efficiently - then we are on to a good thing

A good mate of mine runs a company down in the south of england that supplies parts for small scale renewable technologies - everything from solar pannels to small wind turbines. They also have manufactured a few parts and do installations, and even though the current economy has hit their profit margin with the increased cost of parts, business is still doing very very well and still expanding. I believe they've also just secured a decent government contract.

Is a good industry to get into at all levels.

Scotland has plenty of renewable energy resource but no money to exploit it. Nobody in the uk is investing so anyone planning sites are non uk or at least owned abroad. All the windmills and turbines are being built abroad and shipped in.

We will see feck all of the money