I was merrily squatting away to rock-bottom last night when two guys came over and cautioned me against it, saying that going beyond parallel puts undue stress on the knees. You and I both know this is wrong, but can anyone link me to a decent article explaining why (preferably in layman's terms)?

As it happened they were both really sound, we had a great deadlift session together and one of them is a mountain biker too so I was quite glad the conversation took place; I said I'd dig out some info for them on the squatting thing though so any help much appreciated.

Why do you need to convince them? Just agree to disagree.

Karlos wrote:Why do you need to convince them? Just agree to disagree.

I don't need to, but they were decent guys and talking out of genuine (if misguided) concern rather than trying to be know-it-alls; if ATG squatting is better then why not offer them the benefits?

To be honest mate, for every article you find advocating atg, youll find another one saying sub // is dangerous. Same for high bar/low bar, PL stance/Close stance, Quad focus/Hamstring focus etc.. Personally i think all forms of squats can be done well, and all can be done badly. Focus on the ones that most benefit your sport/goals and stay safe.

I think its a case of stopping at a point that is suited to you. I go pretty low and that is more comfortable than stopping ata a certain point. Some people find parallel to be the right hight. Horses for courses

It all depends on how valuable knee flexion is to you.

Oly lifter - very valuable.
Powerlifter - Somewhat valuable.
Sprinter - Not so much which is why a lot of sprinters only do half squats.

IMO unless you have a specific reason for not going ATG (medical or sporting) then you should be going as low as possible. Controlled slow negative, pause at bottom to elimated any bounce, then up as fast as you can fire your muscles.

cleaver wrote:It all depends on how valuable knee flexion is to you.

Oly lifter - very valuable.
Powerlifter - Somewhat valuable.
Sprinter - Not so much which is why a lot of sprinters only do half squats.

IMO unless you have a specific reason for not going ATG (medical or sporting) then you should be going as low as possible. Controlled slow negative, pause at bottom to elimated any bounce, then up as fast as you can fire your muscles.

Agree. ATG squats recruit more of the posterior chain. Under developed glutes and hams = injury. Plus ATG will strengthen the knee structures over time and make the knee more robust.

I find it pretty difficult to go atg for me, I've had knee and hamstring problems before, so the tension that starts to pull on my hams when I get lower than parallel is just too uncomfortable/unnerving, so seeing as I'm not going to compete in anything like that, I'd rather go just below parallel and that's it...

Spit wrote:You and I both know this is wrong, but can anyone link me to a decent article explaining why (preferably in layman's terms)?

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2694

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=6379361

Conclusion/Recommendations

Based on the literature reviewed, the optimal squat technique to minimize the risk of injury and ensure maximal activation of the leg muscles should be a wide stance (feet shoulder width) with a natural foot positioning (12, 13, 21, 23, 26) (ideally closely related to foot position common to the sport); unrestricted movement of the knees (heels remain in contact with the floor, although ideally no further forward than the toes [14, 24]); gaze forwards or upwards (9); and full depth (115–125?) (7, 23, 27), as long as the lordotic curve is maintained.

There's a good one on T-Nation somewhere but I can't find it at the moment.

Attaboy! Thanks Scott. You're right about T-Nation, I can think of a good bit that Cosgrove wrote on it, but can't search that site while at work.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... xposed&cr=

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... ly_dislike

That's the badger! Do you mind cleaning my oven out while you're feeling so helpful?

Sure, once you've paid me £30

I like to change up foot position with Squats every six weeks. I think the point made about going as low as you can whilst maintaining the correct lower back position is most important... when your form goes there, thats when you are gonna get injured. Personally I like to go fully ATG on medium and narrow stance squats but not on wider stance... with those i prefer to drop just slightly sub para. Front and Overhead Squats however I think are best to always go ATG on.

cleaver wrote:It all depends on how valuable knee flexion is to you.

Oly lifter - very valuable.
Powerlifter - Somewhat valuable.
Sprinter - Not so much which is why a lot of sprinters only do half squats.

IMO unless you have a specific reason for not going ATG (medical or sporting) then you should be going as low as possible. Controlled slow negative, pause at bottom to elimated any bounce, then up as fast as you can fire your muscles.

Liked the look of this thread as I am PBing on my olympic squat this evening.

Don't know if you can 'rep' on this forum, but pretty good post. The best bit being

you should be going as low as possible

If you're training for the sake of training then this is true. Squat as low as you can with good form, whilst minimising injury risk. Some people will never be able to olympic squat with decent form due to achillies tendon length whilst others will just use 'inflexibility' as an excuse to load the bar and do half squats.

I don't see the 'bounce' as being an issue either as long as its not excessive and has been progressive.

MartinM wrote:Some people will never be able to olympic squat with decent form due to achillies tendon length

Yes, most of my clients get their heels raised. Whilst not ideal, it works and means they get lower and are in a better body position.

MartinM wrote:I don't see the 'bounce' as being an issue either as long as its not excessive and has been progressive.

Agree. Although I currently like to remove the myotatic reflex by pausing, then exploding up.

health4ni wrote:Although I currently like to remove the myotatic reflex by pausing, then exploding up.

I alwasy used the bounce/stretch reflex when I used to Oly lift- When I go for PB's in PLing I tend to try to use it to - Every little helps when you're PBing at competition.

Ader wrote:

health4ni wrote:Although I currently like to remove the myotatic reflex by pausing, then exploding up.

I alwasy used the bounce/stretch reflex when I used to Oly lift- When I go for PB's in PLing I tend to try to use it to - Every little helps when you're PBing at competition.

Oh yes of course. It's about weight lifted. I don't pause all the time.

I don't have the link which might render this post useless but I will add what I have researched.

- The original research saying ATG squats were stressful on the knees were the same people that said leg extensions were far safer.
- The forces put on the knees during squatting are at their maximal at the parallel phase.
- Olympic weightlifters have one of the lowest incidences of knee injuries among any professional sport.
- Sitting in the bottom of a squat is a natural position for the body, you don't see babies picking things off the floor at a parallel squat level! I rarely hear of toddlers complaining of knee pain..

It can cause more pain in the less mobile athlete though so people do have a tendency to chop it short.

I agree!

BDCC wrote:I don't have the link which might render this post useless but I will add what I have researched.

- The original research saying ATG squats were stressful on the knees were the same people that said leg extensions were far safer.
- The forces put on the knees during squatting are at their maximal at the parallel phase.
- Olympic weightlifters have one of the lowest incidences of knee injuries among any professional sport.
- Sitting in the bottom of a squat is a natural position for the body, you don't see babies picking things off the floor at a parallel squat level! I rarely hear of toddlers complaining of knee pain..

It can cause more pain in the less mobile athlete though so people do have a tendency to chop it short.

Good stuff. I think I'm gonna like you lol

BDCC wrote:I don't have the link which might render this post useless but I will add what I have researched.

- The original research saying ATG squats were stressful on the knees were the same people that said leg extensions were far safer.
- The forces put on the knees during squatting are at their maximal at the parallel phase.
- Olympic weightlifters have one of the lowest incidences of knee injuries among any professional sport.
- Sitting in the bottom of a squat is a natural position for the body, you don't see babies picking things off the floor at a parallel squat level! I rarely hear of toddlers complaining of knee pain..

It can cause more pain in the less mobile athlete though so people do have a tendency to chop it short.

Good post Although to lessen the amount some could pick at your argument I'd take out "I rarely hear of toddlers complaining of knee pain"

MartinM wrote:

BDCC wrote:I don't have the link which might render this post useless but I will add what I have researched.

- The original research saying ATG squats were stressful on the knees were the same people that said leg extensions were far safer.
- The forces put on the knees during squatting are at their maximal at the parallel phase.
- Olympic weightlifters have one of the lowest incidences of knee injuries among any professional sport.
- Sitting in the bottom of a squat is a natural position for the body, you don't see babies picking things off the floor at a parallel squat level! I rarely hear of toddlers complaining of knee pain..

It can cause more pain in the less mobile athlete though so people do have a tendency to chop it short.

Good post Although to lessen the amount some could pick at your argument I'd take out "I rarely hear of toddlers complaining of knee pain"

My 3 year old daughter has fantastic form in her squatting. Never heard her complain either

cleaver wrote:

MartinM wrote:

BDCC wrote:I don't have the link which might render this post useless but I will add what I have researched.

- The original research saying ATG squats were stressful on the knees were the same people that said leg extensions were far safer.
- The forces put on the knees during squatting are at their maximal at the parallel phase.
- Olympic weightlifters have one of the lowest incidences of knee injuries among any professional sport.
- Sitting in the bottom of a squat is a natural position for the body, you don't see babies picking things off the floor at a parallel squat level! I rarely hear of toddlers complaining of knee pain..

It can cause more pain in the less mobile athlete though so people do have a tendency to chop it short.

Good post Although to lessen the amount some could pick at your argument I'd take out "I rarely hear of toddlers complaining of knee pain"

My 3 year old daughter has fantastic form in her squatting. Never heard her complain either

You'll have child services round making a 3 year old olympic squat 2 x bodyweight, whether it hurts her knees or not

I reckon she could do more than that She carries heavy boxes of toys around one handed.