Alkaline and Mrs KP

by **kp1512** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:47 am

So this morning I filled a small bag with greens and some salts to take during the day - and Mrs KP asked me whats that - to which I briefly told her and also explained why [alkaline, good for you, etc]

She then explained that taking that numerous times per day can be [potentially] flawed as the stomache needs to be acidic to some degree for the digestive tract to release and make optimim use of Acids. She explained that whilst taking it a few times a day [at max] is good - taking large amounts may actually hinder digestion...ie litres of it or 3-5 times per day

I couldnt say anything back to that as I didnt know enough but I did know she had a point.....?

What do you think?

by **Craig** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:10 am

The alkalinity of food relates to the by products (minerals) it leaves behind rather than the actual PH of the food, lesson to be learned from this is not to discusss nutrition with Mrs.KP

by **health4ni** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:30 am

Some believe that the hydrochloric acid in the stomach is a by-product of the body creating and releasing sodium bicarbonate to neutralise the acidity if food, and thus not for digesting food.

by **Spit** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:31 am

While I agree with you about whole foods Craig, Mrs KP does have a point when it comes to sodium bicarb- that will neutralise stomach acid, and as a large part of the population are hypochlorhydric anyway then I'd be very wary indeed of taking it anywhere near a protein-containing meal. For my money, necking significant amounts of bicard is a step too far, the body just isn't designed to work in that fashion.

(I know KP doesn't specifically mention bicarb in his OP, but thought it was worth mentioning)

by **Dtlv74** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:47 am

Sodium bicarbonate definitely works to alkalise when it hits the bloodstream... but remember also in the stomach it does react with and reduce stomach acid temporarily (NaHCO3 + HCl = NaCl + H2O + CO2) - hence it's use as an antacid.

Green veg contains sodiumbicarb but not really enough to significantly cause this effect - is only when taking the stuff in pure form and in quantity that stomach pH can be temporarily raised. If loading on sodium bicarb, while it does alaklise the blood, I do have a few concerns about B Vitamin absorption, protein digestion and absorption of certain minerals at the time as these things can all be negatively affected by excessive reductions in stomach acid. Wouldn't worry too much about the greens drinks though.

by **Spit** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:00 pm

health4ni wrote:Some believe that the hydrochloric acid in the stomach is a by-product of the body creating and releasing sodium bicarbonate to neutralise the acidity if food, and thus not for digesting food.

I know you've qualified this as a theory that 'some believe' and may not subscribe to it yourself, but this doesn't make a lick of sense to me... it's the tail wagging the dog in terms of digestive function. To look at it another way, supplementing with bicarb (on an empty stomach) should give you acid indigestion/reflux according to that theory, when in reality as Det says it's used as an antacid.

by **health4ni** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:05 pm

It doesn't make sense if you believe the way we're told human digestion works.

I've found absolutely no problems whatsoever from the sodium bicarb ingestion over the past 10 months. I've stopped using digestive enzymes and my digestion has never been better.

by **Spit** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:09 pm

health4ni wrote:It doesn't make sense if you believe the way we're told human digestion works.

I've found absolutely no problems whatsoever from the sodium bicarb ingestion over the past 10 months. I've stopped using digestive enzymes and my digestion has never been better.

Well I'd be interested in reading the alternative theory you allude to- the importance of proper/adequate HCL function for both absorption of nutrients and neutralisation of food-borne pathogens seems like a complete no-brainer to me (and borne out by my own personal experience), but I'm always keen to hear new ideas.

by **health4ni** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:48 pm

From Dr Young's site: http://articlesofhealth.blogspot.com/

The stomach should be acidic and contains hydrochloric acid or HCL to digest food.

This is one of the biggest scientific misconceptions ever. First, the stomach is NOT and organ of digestion. Most so-called digestion starts in the mouth. That's why your mom said to chew your food. The stomach is an organ that alkalizes the food and liquids that you eat. The stomach cells, called the cover cells, secrete sodium bicarbonate onto the ingested food and drink to alkalize the food, not to digest the food. For every molecule of sodium bicarbonate produced by the stomach for alkalizing, a molecule of hydrochloric acid is produced as a waste product. Hydrochloric acid or HCL never touches the food or drink but falls into the gastric pits of the stomach away from the food and drink as the sodium bicarbonate rises to the top to alkalize the food and/or liquids ingested. This is necessary in order to prepare the food in an alkaline state for the duodenum and the small intestine where the liquid food is then biologically transformed into stem cells. There is NO part of the alimentary canal that does not secret sodium bicarbonate for alkalizing. In conclusion, the stomach is an organ of contribution and alkalizing, not a digestive organ as medical savants would have us believe. So now you know it is a whopper of a lie.

That's his overview.

2 good reads on his theroies:
- http://articlesofhealth.blogspot.com/20 ... heory.html
- http://articlesofhealth.blogspot.com/20 ... ts-in.html

EDIT: here's a decent read to: http://www.energiseforlife.com/alkaline ... .php?t=466

by **Resurrected** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:58 pm

I was diagnosed with a hiatus hernia about 10 years ago. To control the condition of relflux oesophagitis I was prescribed the proton pump inhibitor lansoprazole. After taking these daily for 2-3 years I returned one day to my doctor for the regular checks prior to issue of a repeat script, only to see a different doctor. He advised me not to take them daily if it could be helped.

The reason?

As the medication drastically reduces the amount of acids within the stomach it may have long term effects within my body. He could not say what the effects were. He said that although it is known that stomach acid is used in the digestion of food, that it is believed there are other functions that the body needs acid for and that science is not fully aware yet what these are.

Thus the long term effects of drastically reducing acid production are still unknown. I'd guess this could also be the case with making oneself alkaline.

Personally you all know my views on it & I think its pretty much bunkum any way.

by **health4ni** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:01 pm

It's ok, some people believe in God and some don't. It would be a boring world if we all believed the same. People have to make their own minds up.

by **Resurrected** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:03 pm

health4ni wrote:It's ok, some people believe in God and some don't. It would be a boring world if we all believed the same. People have to make their own minds up.

I fully agree Scott. I was not having a dig at you Mr Buff :lol:

by **Spit** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:07 pm

Thanks for the links Scott- I can't access those sites from work but will have a read when I get home. Just offhand though, what do you make of my point about bicarb supplementation vs. heartburn? If the stomach has to match sodium bicarb with HCL molecule-for-molecule, shouldn't necking a load of supplementary bicarb leave you doubled over with acid indigestion, and lead to stomach ulcers etc in the long run?

by **Dtlv74** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:13 pm

Haven't read the links yet but to my understanding at least (could be wrong but fairly confident) that quoted bit is a bit misleading... is true that the hydrogen ions that go to make up the hydrodcholric acid/gastric acid come from bicarbonate taken up by the parietal cells... but this reaction and the bicarbonate itself is never actually in the stomach, the bicarb comes from carbon dioxide and water taken from the bloodstream, and the reaction takes place just in the cells. The hydrogen ions are then mixed, within the same network of cells, with recycled sodium ions where they ionically bond to form hydrocholric acid and are then released into the pits of the stomach.

Bicarb ingested and in the stomach doesnt really have anything to with this process... the initial stimualtion to produce the stomach acid comes from sensor cells in the stomach itself (sensing volume of food and nutrients etc) and histamine responses.

A small amount of ingested bicarb is not a problem, but excessive doses will buffer the acid and, if constant over time, can overstrain the system. If the bicarb is in small doses and not a drip feed though then the body an probably cope, especially if taken away from nutrients that rely heavily on stomach acid to denature them for further stages of digestion (proteins etc).

by **health4ni** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:18 pm

taking sodium bicarb will not mean the body then produces HCl. The body produces HCl in it's production of sodium bicarb. But simply taking/drinking sodium bicarb won't make the stomach produce loads more HCl.

by **Dtlv74** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:41 pm

health4ni wrote:taking sodium bicarb will not mean the body then produces HCl. The body produces HCl in it's production of sodium bicarb. But simply taking/drinking sodium bicarb won't make the stomach produce loads more HCl.

Yes exactly... the body produces bicarb in different cells in the body in relation to many different processes. The bicarb it produces specifically as a precursor to stomach acid is specific only to those cells, temporary in its appearance (exisiting only within a specific set of cells), and not directly related to what you ingest (although its production is indirectly stimulated by it).

Once the stomach acid is produced though it can then be prematurely neutralized by ingested bicarb if the levels are excessive and too high. This is a totally unrelated process to the acid formation in the first place.

The stomach cells, called the cover cells, secrete sodium bicarbonate onto the ingested food and drink to alkalize the food, not to digest the food.

Can someone please find me a link to these 'cover cells' - don't know what they are!

This, to my understanding, is total nonsense. Not having a pop at you Scott as you didn't write this but as I said in a previous post, the bicarb involved in the acid production process never gets into the chamber of the stomach to "secrete sodium bicarbonate onto the ingested food"...

by **Resurrected** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:45 pm

Det,

Cover cells possibly these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_cell :?:

by **health4ni** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:51 pm

^^ yep, they're the ones

by **Dtlv74** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:53 pm

Resurrected wrote:Det,

Cover cells possibly these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_cell

Yep he most probably does mean those - but the bicarb produced as an intermediary doesn't really ever leave the parietal cells to the stomach as it remains in the lumen/duct/tubeules before going back into the blood to be recycled.

by **health4ni** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:00 pm

^^ email him. He's replied to me before on a few occasions. I'd be interested in his response.

by **RoB** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:14 pm

I was very much under the impression that sodium bicarb mixes with food only when the pancrease secretes it, in response to the acid chyme entering the duodenum. Although the pareital cells do produce sodium bicarbonate, they secerete it into the blood causing a transient rise in blood PH after the ingestion of a meal, this is called the alkaline tide. There are distinct acid and alkaline phases of digestion and the stomach is clearly the acid phase.

Has this Dr Young produced any references for these statements because to me he just sounds like a major quack job.

by **Dtlv74** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:23 pm

RoB wrote:I was very much under the impression that sodium bicarb mixes with food only when the pancrease secretes it, in response to the acid chyme entering the duodenum. Although the pareital cells do produce sodium bicarbonate, they secerete it into the blood causing a transient rise in blood PH after the ingestion of a meal, this is called the alkaline tide. There are distinct acid and alkaline phases of digestion and the stomach is clearly the acid phase.

Has this Dr Young produced any references for these statements because to me he just sounds like a major quack job.

Thats in line with what I thought too - the bicarb that the parietal cells produce is only used as an intermediary to produce the H ions that then go on to form the stomach acid... and the more acid you produce the more bicarb the parietal cells need to make and so the more that is recycled into the blood hence the alkaline tide!

If the bicarb went directly into the chamber of the stomach and reacted with the food then surely the alkaline tide phenomenon wouldn't occur?

by **RoB** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:30 pm

Dtlv74 wrote:
Thats in line with what I thought too - the bicarb that the parietal cells produce is only used as an intermediary to produce the H ions that then go on to form the stomach acid... and the more acid you produce the more bicarb the parietal cells need to make and so the more that is recycled into the blood hence the alkaline tide!

If the bicarb went directly into the chamber of the stomach and reacted with the food then surely the alkaline tide phenomenon wouldn't occur?

Also, If Bicarb and HCL are secreted into the chamber like for like in a 1:1 ratio, you'd expect the PH to be much higher than it actually is.

by **Spit** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:57 pm

Let's not go down this road again, please...

Scott, going back to my previous point: ingesting bicarb does indeed cause the body to produce HCL, in an effort to regain the natural ph balance of the stomach.

http://www.seattledigestivehealth.com/Heidelberg.htm

That link explains the Heidelberg test, which is the standard test for hypochlorhydria; as you'll see the patient ingests bicarb and the time for the stomach to regain neutrality is then charted.

by **simon m** on Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:58 pm

Spit wrote:Let's not go down this road again, please...

I'm deleting non helpful posts including my own.

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