Wardie wrote:What do you lot make of this?

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... omes_again

Looks like a complete and utter waste of money to me..

Josh wrote:It claims to inhibit 17b hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase which if it does, would encourage more cortisone and less cortisol, which would mean a weaker cortisol signal.

Whether the agent (17b-hydroxyadrenosterone) causes this inhibition, I dont know.
I also dont know if the agent can get through the skin via topical delivery.
The more important question is that even if it does work, would homeostasis upregulate 17b hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase to compensate. If it does, one would have to be vary careful how it is used, or one could end up with a nasty cortisol rebound, similar to comming off a high dose var cycle. If it does work it may also cause problems with hypertension.

J

FightingScott wrote:
And a skin spray has to be one of the worst delivery methods for anything. Defiantly lower than pill form. I doubt even 40% of this stuff gets absorbed.

This skin isn't exactly designed to absorb stuff. If you want something in your blood, scientifically speaking you gotta go with swallowing it, snorting it, sticking it up your ass, or injecting it.

Why someone would purchase this product over actual testosterone is beyond me.

Well, let's see. I have 4 years of graduate research in transdermal delivery and 5 published scientific papers in peer-reviewed journals (J Pharm Sci and Int J Pharm) in the field of transdermal delivery and your expertise is, what?

You are simply factually wrong claiming that a "pill" of 17-ADR would be more bioavailable. Did it even occur to you that taking it orally is the first thing we tried?

It's true that there's a ton of transdermal systems that don't work well and have very poor bioavailability. The system I invented in contrast is highly effective, as both Androsol users and blood studies we had done for that product can testify.

Your final conclusion, Why would anyone buy this over testosterone, is what really ices the cake on the quality of your objections.

Perhaps you aren't aware but whether cost efficiency of a legal product is equal to injected black market testosterone has NEVER been the standard and cannot be the standard. If it were the standard, there would be no supplements beyond protein and multivitamin/multiminerals.

For that matter, there wouldn't even be any other anabolic steroids except testosterone. Very few if any of them are as cheap and price-effective as it is. Why do people pay the premium for say a product like oxandrolone?

Because of not wanting to inject, not wanting the estrogenic side effects, not wanting the DHT side effects, or all of the above. That's getting off the subject though.

But if injected testosterone is the comparison you personally want to make, then I believe even Homer Simpson could tell you that you will get more bang for the buck with black market testosterone. D'oh! No one ever said or implied otherwise. Where you thought anyone did, I can't imagine.

Orinoco wrote:I think that you have to separate the cost from efficacy to scrutinise this stuff fairly. Does it work? I'd highly suspect it does what it says on the tin. Is it worth the moola? I doubt it.

I personally think Bill Roberts(the guy who developed this) is innovative and on the level when it comes to designing supps...and I actually used the androsol product (4AD) when it came out (my one and only daliance with prohormones). Although I just used it pre-workout (and pre-sexual workouts also ) for a boost/lift. I can't say I noticed any gains as I didn't exactly use it for that purpose, but others reported gains from it, and it sold very well.

If you're suspect on Biotest's claims that the regular 11 oxo is poorly absorbed orally, then just try that for a fraction of the cost.

Bill Roberts answers alot of queries in this thread, not least this one below pertaining to his credentials.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_article/something_wicked_this_way_comes_again_2?id=2416598&pageNo=4

FightingScott wrote:
And a skin spray has to be one of the worst delivery methods for anything. Defiantly lower than pill form. I doubt even 40% of this stuff gets absorbed.

This skin isn't exactly designed to absorb stuff. If you want something in your blood, scientifically speaking you gotta go with swallowing it, snorting it, sticking it up your ass, or injecting it.

Why someone would purchase this product over actual testosterone is beyond me.

Well, let's see. I have 4 years of graduate research in transdermal delivery and 5 published scientific papers in peer-reviewed journals (J Pharm Sci and Int J Pharm) in the field of transdermal delivery and your expertise is, what?

You are simply factually wrong claiming that a "pill" of 17-ADR would be more bioavailable. Did it even occur to you that taking it orally is the first thing we tried?

It's true that there's a ton of transdermal systems that don't work well and have very poor bioavailability. The system I invented in contrast is highly effective, as both Androsol users and blood studies we had done for that product can testify.

Your final conclusion, Why would anyone buy this over testosterone, is what really ices the cake on the quality of your objections.

Perhaps you aren't aware but whether cost efficiency of a legal product is equal to injected black market testosterone has NEVER been the standard and cannot be the standard. If it were the standard, there would be no supplements beyond protein and multivitamin/multiminerals.

For that matter, there wouldn't even be any other anabolic steroids except testosterone. Very few if any of them are as cheap and price-effective as it is. Why do people pay the premium for say a product like oxandrolone?

Because of not wanting to inject, not wanting the estrogenic side effects, not wanting the DHT side effects, or all of the above. That's getting off the subject though.

But if injected testosterone is the comparison you personally want to make, then I believe even Homer Simpson could tell you that you will get more bang for the buck with black market testosterone. D'oh! No one ever said or implied otherwise. Where you thought anyone did, I can't imagine.